2012 Kawasakis are here

[macmac]

Grrr If I had ABS I would be dead... Anything that makes the stop longer than it needs to be is a death trap as i see it.

You lift the weight off the suspention going into get gas at the side walk and you just hit the pumps.

And for Moose forget it. I can brake better than a computer that's blind can any time.

Last Nov I almost hit another moose in the van and if the van had ABS i would be dead again.

Not sold by a long shot. This is just my opinion of course as i stand 0 chance of getting anything on 12..... A part of that is nut hin' made much now I would want anyway. Between Osha and the EPA almost everything is over saftied to death.

I just can't figure out how Glock gets away with it. With that it's your finger that IS the safety. That safety works good too so long as you keep the safety off the trigger!

Next thang out will be a automatic tranny with training wheels on bikes. The wheels will self lower under 31 MPH.

I'l take a stiffer frame over ABS anyday....

[Monkeyman]

ABS won't stop you slower. It won't stop you any faster, either. It just stops you safer. Assuming it works the same on bikes as it does on cars/trucks, it pumps the brakes faster than you ever could, right on the edge of lock up. Not sure you could lock up the brakes on a Nomad but if you did, you'd stop much slower than if the wheels kept turning.

To each their own. I'll still ride with ya!

[ridemslow]

How innocent can it be? Stopped in today at my local dealer, to drop of some sugarfree applebutter. I've dealt with this dealer since 1971, so no big deal. Sittin on a new Voyager, and alternately a Vaquerro, and my wife was there with me. Comparing the bags, floorboards and such, when suddenly, she says get my arse off! WTF? Well, the last time I did that, i did end up riding my '06 out the door, so I guess she was right to be worried. But Hell, I'm innocent......

[Top Cat]

Here's my thought. I pull into a gravel parking lot and am going just a little to fast.
Never mind that thought.

Lets go with this. I come into a curve going a little to fast. The curve turns into a decreasing radius, with the Nomad I have now I can use the rear brake to scrub off some speed without worrying about the front tire losing traction.
Now if I have ABS the front tire will be braking also, in my mind, that is not so good.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Top Cat

Here's my thought. I pull into a gravel parking lot and am going just a little to fast.
Never mind that thought.

Lets go with this. I come into a curve going a little to fast. The curve turns into a decreasing radius, with the Nomad I have now I can use the rear brake to scrub off some speed without worrying about the front tire losing traction.
Now if I have ABS the front tire will be braking also, in my mind, that is not so good.

No. It depends on the braking system. Some systems are linked, others are not. Read the fine print. For instance, the GW and Vision has fully linked brakes, meaning no matter which one you select, both front and rear have some engagement relative to which brake input gets actuated. The CCT has independent ABS, as far as the Voyager goes, I don't know. BMWs use partial integral meaning the rear brake only actuates the rear and the front does both fully. This means you can use the rear brake in a turn and it will have ABS, but if you need to haul it down quickly, just grab the front, which will also have ABS. I can tell you that if I grab the front brake on my RT like I would to stop my Nomad, I'd end up over the handle bars. It's happend to people, so I have read...

[ponch]

Originally Posted by macmac

Grrr If I had ABS I would be dead... Anything that makes the stop longer than it needs to be is a death trap as i see it.

You lift the weight off the suspention going into get gas at the side walk and you just hit the pumps.

And for Moose forget it. I can brake better than a computer that's blind can any time.

Last Nov I almost hit another moose in the van and if the van had ABS i would be dead again.

Not sold by a long shot. This is just my opinion of course as i stand 0 chance of getting anything on 12..... A part of that is nut hin' made much now I would want anyway. Between Osha and the EPA almost everything is over saftied to death.

I just can't figure out how Glock gets away with it. With that it's your finger that IS the safety. That safety works good too so long as you keep the safety off the trigger!

Next thang out will be a automatic tranny with training wheels on bikes. The wheels will self lower under 31 MPH.

I'l take a stiffer frame over ABS anyday....

If I ever meet you, I'll let you ride my bike. It will change your mind.

[macmac]

Ponch BMW recalled ABS system bikes due to crossing side walks with ABS on bikes were hitting gas pumps.

Monkeyman I disagree with respect. ABS lets go of system pressure, and that makes stops longer.

I might not be the worlds best rider by a long shot but I can burn rubber braking and still keep my wheels turning for a fair distance.

This is a measured 85.5 feet. The burn on the right has nothing to do with me. The missing section is where I let up a little, thinking maybe I had stopped a wheel and was sliding on buring rubber.

You sure can lock up both brakes on a Nomad. I did run out of room and I did hit a jeep cherokee, but when a moose stops a vehical it stops it Right Now Fast. That jeep didn't move another inch.



I am sure that with ABS brakes i would have been tossed head first thru the glass and ended up with the driver and his passanger, and very dead.

Instead i busted up my ft fender, and that was from pulling the bike out from under the bumper of the jeep. I didn't even drop the bike, because i couldn't.

I have driven a lot of cars and trucks and IMO i could stop them all faster than ABS can.

I won't buy anything with ABS or OBD, much less OBD II. But this is just me.

I have worked on ABS systems too. I know how it works, and I just don't want any part of it. I think it was 85 when VW first came out with ABS and if it wasn't VW it was Volvo.

[macmac]

Originally Posted by ridemslow

How innocent can it be? Stopped in today at my local dealer, to drop of some sugarfree applebutter. I've dealt with this dealer since 1971, so no big deal. Sittin on a new Voyager, and alternately a Vaquerro, and my wife was there with me. Comparing the bags, floorboards and such, when suddenly, she says get my arse off! WTF? Well, the last time I did that, i did end up riding my '06 out the door, so I guess she was right to be worried. But Hell, I'm innocent......

You need one of my tomahawk kits for just $19.95! These consist of a iron forged head, and a stick you must sand a little to fit the head on a tad loose. Then to tighten it, you soak it in the toliet, where it can work miricals on the female gender.

[Loafer]

Back to the reservation, MICMAC!

[ponch]

Originally Posted by macmac

Ponch BMW recalled ABS system bikes due to crossing side walks with ABS on bikes were hitting gas pumps.

Monkeyman I disagree with respect. ABS lets go of system pressure, and that makes stops longer.

I might not be the worlds best rider by a long shot but I can burn rubber braking and still keep my wheels turning for a fair distance.

This is a measured 85.5 feet. The burn on the right has nothing to do with me. The missing section is where I let up a little, thinking maybe I had stopped a wheel and was sliding on buring rubber.

You sure can lock up both brakes on a Nomad. I did run out of room and I did hit a jeep cherokee, but when a moose stops a vehical it stops it Right Now Fast. That jeep didn't move another inch.



I am sure that with ABS brakes i would have been tossed head first thru the glass and ended up with the driver and his passanger, and very dead.

Instead i busted up my ft fender, and that was from pulling the bike out from under the bumper of the jeep. I didn't even drop the bike, because i couldn't.

I have driven a lot of cars and trucks and IMO i could stop them all faster than ABS can.

I won't buy anything with ABS or OBD, much less OBD II. But this is just me.

I have worked on ABS systems too. I know how it works, and I just don't want any part of it. I think it was 85 when VW first came out with ABS and if it wasn't VW it was Volvo.

Do you know why they were recalled? Because a couple people had brake lines fail, so BMW replaced the brake lines in the affected models. Mine was one of them, but I never had a problem before I had the recall fix. It's a non-event and non-sequitur as to efficacy. My point was that the brakes work exceedingly well without having to apply a death grip to the brakes to stop. As far as ODB II, bikes don't follow that and seem to be proprietary. As time goes by, all vehicles will have technology as such (they already do) and ABS and ODB II will be the least of your complaints. You'll find if you learn the new stuff, you still have to use the same logic to fix them, it's just that you'll have some different tools. You'll also find some problems will go away completely.

[macmac]

Originally Posted by ponch

Do you know why they were recalled? Because a couple people had brake lines fail, so BMW replaced the brake lines in the affected models. Mine was one of them, but I never had a problem before I had the recall fix. It's a non-event and non-sequitur as to efficacy. My point was that the brakes work exceedingly well without having to apply a death grip to the brakes to stop. As far as ODB II, bikes don't follow that and seem to be proprietary. As time goes by, all vehicles will have technology as such (they already do) and ABS and ODB II will be the least of your complaints. You'll find if you learn the new stuff, you still have to use the same logic to fix them, it's just that you'll have some different tools. You'll also find some problems will go away completely.

The way I head it was that the bikes lifted and lightened the suspention when the brakes were on. The lightening caused the brakes to set off ABS to let up psi, and guys were hitting gas pumps.

ABS lets the brake pressure off for moments, and any time you hear it ticking you are moving faster in a direction that you have to be.

Magnetic sencors can tell wheel rpm, and let the ABS valves open reducing system pressure.

A big problem I have is i don't have two same vehicals to test with, just one has ABS and the other doesn't.

On glare ice i can stop my old volvo faster than I can stop my x wifes subaru. My son showed up here with that asking why the su baru was so long to stop. He asked me to drive it in the field and in the doing I hit the snow bank. I did the same t hing with my 2 wheel drive Volvo and i did not hit the banking and i was going faster than with the subaru.

Going down a wet and muddy dirt rd in upstate NY with the boss mans new Dodge truck i went to brake hard for turkey and went off the road trying to get that truck under cont roll and miss the birds.

I got that truck out of the woods drove it to the work site and got my own damn truck to chase the lumber and never again drove that Dodge.

ABS to me is damnned dangerous. I just don't like it to the point i will never own it.

Nothing will convince me letting system pressure off is safer. I also won't own anything with air bags, which I consider dangerous. That is a bomb made to go off in your face, and when these malfuction people get dead.

Yeas sure 98% of the time.. But I would rather do the driving over a computer. I have found many bad computyers in my time and no one can tell me these computers never go bad with out me laughing.

Anything made by man can and does fail.

Last summer i worked on a wheel brake job that was ABS and it was a horror show. This wasn't any ABS problem, but the ABS made fixing it far worse. That vehical was a katrina truck and it sat in water long enough to make 2 water lines on the frame. I will never get involved in any jobs like that again either.

The rear axel backing plates were dust, the rear axel filler plug was rotted out and could not be removed, not even by me, and that's sayin something. I just made a new location and made a new plug.

We got engineers that don't know basic nuts and bolts, designing things they hardly know about. That is the biggest reason I got out.

These days it's getting hard to find anyone who knows how to build a transmission, and practicly everything sold in the way of a vehical is some engineers pipe dream, all experiments at the buyers expence.

Nomads suffer this. Some quassi engineer used rear axel seals for thrust washers and had no idea how to set up a rear swing arm right. Some bean counter passed that design on to manufacturing and they built the goofy thing. That don't make it right.

Nomads have another flaw in the oil seal to water pump mechanical seal. Mostly they got that almost right, but when that oil seal fails there is a good chance the heat treating on the drive shaft for the water pump has failed.

You can cheat and get these with out splitting the case, but splitting the case for a oil seal is plain stupid.

Used to be over drive was controlled by a simple lever and link age sust em, but no more. Now it's anyone best guess depending on what vehical it is, and who knows what relays, solenoids and cam driven pistons fixed with rubber o ring on the pistons will fail.

There are easier cheaper and better ways to make most of these things easier and cheaper to fix, but today engineers plain don't understand common nuts and bolts tech. Everything emds up as a 1 year long if that, special run.

I could do this all day long and name models and brands I will never want because i don't like the way they are built, and I don't want to own things they have.

Another one is thetire air checking system. The senders are good for one time and t hen to change out a tire they all get busted off, and you gotta get new ones by LAW. I don't want that on anything I ever own.
i got a gauge and 2 eyes, besides I can feel it in the seat of my pants.
I can have all the heart attacks I want driving anything I own and I don't need any help from ABS. Plain and simple it lets system pressure drop.

But what I like and what I work on can be 2 different things since for one I get paid, and the other I don't. I won't own anything I won't work on, and when it gets to that point i don't even care about the money.

There are vehicals i refuse to work on because the engineering is so poor i feel guilty if I take money for something that can never be right.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by macmac

The way I head it was that the bikes lifted and lightened the suspention when the brakes were on. The lightening caused the brakes to set off ABS to let up psi, and guys were hitting gas pumps.

ABS lets the brake pressure off for moments, and any time you hear it ticking you are moving faster in a direction that you have to be.

Magnetic sencors can tell wheel rpm, and let the ABS valves open reducing system pressure.

A big problem I have is i don't have two same vehicals to test with, just one has ABS and the other doesn't.

On glare ice i can stop my old volvo faster than I can stop my x wifes subaru. My son showed up here with that asking why the su baru was so long to stop. He asked me to drive it in the field and in the doing I hit the snow bank. I did the same t hing with my 2 wheel drive Volvo and i did not hit the banking and i was going faster than with the subaru.

Going down a wet and muddy dirt rd in upstate NY with the boss mans new Dodge truck i went to brake hard for turkey and went off the road trying to get that truck under cont roll and miss the birds.

I got that truck out of the woods drove it to the work site and got my own damn truck to chase the lumber and never again drove that Dodge.

ABS to me is damnned dangerous. I just don't like it to the point i will never own it.

Nothing will convince me letting system pressure off is safer. I also won't own anything with air bags, which I consider dangerous. That is a bomb made to go off in your face, and when these malfuction people get dead.

Yeas sure 98% of the time.. But I would rather do the driving over a computer. I have found many bad computyers in my time and no one can tell me these computers never go bad with out me laughing.

Anything made by man can and does fail.

Last summer i worked on a wheel brake job that was ABS and it was a horror show. This wasn't any ABS problem, but the ABS made fixing it far worse. That vehical was a katrina truck and it sat in water long enough to make 2 water lines on the frame. I will never get involved in any jobs like that again either.

The rear axel backing plates were dust, the rear axel filler plug was rotted out and could not be removed, not even by me, and that's sayin something. I just made a new location and made a new plug.

We got engineers that don't know basic nuts and bolts, designing things they hardly know about. That is the biggest reason I got out.

These days it's getting hard to find anyone who knows how to build a transmission, and practicly everything sold in the way of a vehical is some engineers pipe dream, all experiments at the buyers expence.

Nomads suffer this. Some quassi engineer used rear axel seals for thrust washers and had no idea how to set up a rear swing arm right. Some bean counter passed that design on to manufacturing and they built the goofy thing. That don't make it right.

Nomads have another flaw in the oil seal to water pump mechanical seal. Mostly they got that almost right, but when that oil seal fails there is a good chance the heat treating on the drive shaft for the water pump has failed.

You can cheat and get these with out splitting the case, but splitting the case for a oil seal is plain stupid.

Used to be over drive was controlled by a simple lever and link age sust em, but no more. Now it's anyone best guess depending on what vehical it is, and who knows what relays, solenoids and cam driven pistons fixed with rubber o ring on the pistons will fail.

There are easier cheaper and better ways to make most of these things easier and cheaper to fix, but today engineers plain don't understand common nuts and bolts tech. Everything emds up as a 1 year long if that, special run.

I could do this all day long and name models and brands I will never want because i don't like the way they are built, and I don't want to own things they have.

Another one is thetire air checking system. The senders are good for one time and t hen to change out a tire they all get busted off, and you gotta get new ones by LAW. I don't want that on anything I ever own.
i got a gauge and 2 eyes, besides I can feel it in the seat of my pants.
I can have all the heart attacks I want driving anything I own and I don't need any help from ABS. Plain and simple it lets system pressure drop.

But what I like and what I work on can be 2 different things since for one I get paid, and the other I don't. I won't own anything I won't work on, and when it gets to that point i don't even care about the money.

There are vehicals i refuse to work on because the engineering is so poor i feel guilty if I take money for something that can never be right.

That must have been a long time ago. The ABS problem on later model R1200RTs had to do with a brake line that goes from the ABS controller to the junction block for the front brake fractured because of vibration. I never had an issue, but they replaced the lines under warranty. I've never had an issue being able to stop at gas pumps or other places, but then the ABS on BMWs has progressed since then. As far as how it works, it's not that it lets the pressure drop, but modulates it to prevent lockup. All police bikes have it and if it wasn't safe, I bet they wouldn't want it.

[Top Cat]

Bear with me Jim I am trying to understand.;)
So, there are fully linked systems and semi linked systems.
Fully linked will apply pressure to both front and rear no matter which lever I apply.
Semi linked will only apply pressure to the front if I use the front brake lever and only apply to the back wheel if I step on the rear brake lever.
Is this correct?

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Top Cat

Bear with me Jim I am trying to understand.;)
So, there are fully linked systems and semi linked systems.
Fully linked will apply pressure to both front and rear no matter which lever I apply.
Semi linked will only apply pressure to the front if I use the front brake lever and only apply to the back wheel if I step on the rear brake lever.
Is this correct?

There are three:
Fully Integral: Using the front lever engages the front and some of the rear caliper pistons, using the rear engages the rear and some of the front caliper pistons.
Partial Integral: Using the front engages the front and rear fully, like a car, but engaging just the rear engages just the rear.
Separate: Just like the Nomad, so the rider has to chose the application of how the front and rear are applied.

ABS modulates the line pressures so the tires don't lock up and therefore lose traction under braking.

[ponch]

The Voyager uses a fully integrated ABS which disables the integration below 12 mph and disables the ABS below 4 mph.