Vaquero intake leaks

[blowndodge]

James, this air temp I measured was correct underneath the dog bowl. always over 250.. as Mitch pointed out once you open the dog bowl with an open air cleaner that trapped lethal hot air no longer gets trapped behind the dog bowl. I didn't open the right side as i don't like the additional air intake noise. That's just me.

Next weekend I'm riding down to my cousins house the day after Xmas and I'm shutting off the TFI completely just to see what happens... I'm convinced that taking the sensor away from massive engine heat trapped by the dog bowl has it's advantages!!!

[jandreu]

Originally Posted by Cajunrider

James, After installing my TFI, the pinging remained but much less than before. I tried octane fuel but had to move back up to 89 in the warm months. Pulling the trailer up hills caused pinging no matter where I set the pots. I then installed the V&H baggers which increased top end power a little but I still had some pinging. I finished off the power mods by installing Chuckster's dual plate intake which eliminated the crossover tube. I can't make it ping now with 87. Taking the crossover out of the mix definitely cools the intake air. My temp sensor is still located on the intake plate but the air passing over it has to be much cooler.

Cajunrider, I agree with the stock dog bowl and crossover tube setup the intake air has more time to heat up on the way thru however with an open air intake of any design where the air is not passing from one side to the other thru a tube running between the cylinders I don't think it would have the chance to reach a temp much more than ambient. I have no idea how much our 1600 CC mills gulp each second but it's a lot and the air would have to remain in the elevated temp environment for at least a second to heat up.

So my question is do we feel the air temp sensor relocation is really a benefit with an open intake. I'm not sure it is.

Brad, I'll be looking for your comments after running without the TFI, Of course for it to be a real test you should run one way without the TFI and the relocated air temp sensor and the return trip without the TFI and the air temp sensor back in the stock location. This would be an apples to apples comparison. However IF you are still running with the crossover tube than the air "may" heat up more and cause a lean condition that would not exist with an open air box or the air temp sensor relocated.

Interesting work here guys, RacnRay what are your thoughts about this?


As a side note I guess I'm a lucky one as my Nomad has never pinged under any load even when bone stock as long as I run 89 and up octane. It's always got bad gas millage even when bone stock so I suppect my bike was setup from the factory on the rich side of the spec's.

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why would the bike be designed to run leaner in warm weather? Leaner makes it run hotter and as Brad said earlier it's a viscous cycle, the hotter the leaner the more it pings.

I'm no expert by any means, is there any way to confirm that increased air temp does cause a lean condition thru the ECU?

[ponch]

Originally Posted by jandreu

Cajunrider, I agree with the stock dog bowl and crossover tube setup the intake air has more time to heat up on the way thru however with an open air intake of any design where the air is not passing from one side to the other thru a tube running between the cylinders I don't think it would have the chance to reach a temp much more than ambient. I have no idea how much our 1600 CC mills gulp each second but it's a lot and the air would have to remain in the elevated temp environment for at least a second to heat up.

So my question is do we feel the air temp sensor relocation is really a benefit with an open intake. I'm not sure it is.

Brad, I'll be looking for your comments after running without the TFI, Of course for it to be a real test you should run one way without the TFI and the relocated air temp sensor and the return trip without the TFI and the air temp sensor back in the stock location. This would be an apples to apples comparison. However IF you are still running with the crossover tube than the air "may" heat up more and cause a lean condition that would not exist with an open air box or the air temp sensor relocated.

Interesting work here guys, RacnRay what are your thoughts about this?


As a side note I guess I'm a lucky one as my Nomad has never pinged under any load even when bone stock as long as I run 89 and up octane. It's always got bad gas millage even when bone stock so I suppect my bike was setup from the factory on the rich side of the spec's.

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why would the bike be designed to run leaner in warm weather? Leaner makes it run hotter and as Brad said earlier it's a viscous cycle, the hotter the leaner the more it pings.

I'm no expert by any means, is there any way to confirm that increased air temp does cause a lean condition thru the ECU?

Emissions requirements.

[blowndodge]

Originally Posted by jandreu

Cajunrider, I agree with the stock dog bowl and crossover tube setup the intake air has more time to heat up on the way thru however with an open air intake of any design where the air is not passing from one side to the other thru a tube running between the cylinders I don't think it would have the chance to reach a temp much more than ambient. I have no idea how much our 1600 CC mills gulp each second but it's a lot and the air would have to remain in the elevated temp environment for at least a second to heat up.

So my question is do we feel the air temp sensor relocation is really a benefit with an open intake. I'm not sure it is.

Brad, I'll be looking for your comments after running without the TFI, Of course for it to be a real test you should run one way without the TFI and the relocated air temp sensor and the return trip without the TFI and the air temp sensor back in the stock location. This would be an apples to apples comparison. However IF you are still running with the crossover tube than the air "may" heat up more and cause a lean condition that would not exist with an open air box or the air temp sensor relocated.

Interesting work here guys, RacnRay what are your thoughts about this?


As a side note I guess I'm a lucky one as my Nomad has never pinged under any load even when bone stock as long as I run 89 and up octane. It's always got bad gas millage even when bone stock so I suppect my bike was setup from the factory on the rich side of the spec's.

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why would the bike be designed to run leaner in warm weather? Leaner makes it run hotter and as Brad said earlier it's a viscous cycle, the hotter the leaner the more it pings.

I'm no expert by any means, is there any way to confirm that increased air temp does cause a lean condition thru the ECU?

James I've ran my TFI for over 20K miles. I already know what results I gained from it. I've also measured the temp right behind the dog bowl and got the 275 degrees. It's not the crossover tube heating up the air it's the entire right side bowl and backing plate mounted right next to both cylinders that building up the heat.

If you doubt it, idle your bike until the fan kicks in then shut off the bike and just try to take off the bowl!! You'll burn the shit out of your fingers! I can hardly even touch the rubber tubes going to the fast idle solenoids. It's hot and I've measured it and it's not from the crossover tube.

[RACNRAY]

I first moved an a/t sensor on my modified Busa back in 2001, and we perform this on all the skoots with modified engines. On my Busa it evened out the way the engine ran, from start-up to full hot, and the Busa has a ram-air intake, so at a stand still or low speeds it is a VERY fresh air system, and the higher speeds it will start to negate the natural vacuum in the intake, and at very high speeds it will actually provide a small increase in manifold pressure, a "boost" condition.

Every skoot we perform this mod on runs better. I don't know why i didn't do this back when i made my intake system.

FYI...the Busa manual lists 4 temps to check the air temp sensor at, requiring the sensor to be ....HEATED!!

The temps the sensor is to be checked at is, check these out...68 dg...122 dg...176 dg...230 dg!!! Now unless one is riding in an active volcano, i am not aware of ANY spot on earth where anyone rides in above 176 dg temps, much less 230!! This represents the fact that even tho one would believe the constant supply of fresh air into an intake system would keep intake temps close to ambient, heat radiating from the engine does have an affect on the air temp inside the a/b.

RACNRAY

[watchman]

Question: What size wire did you use when you moved the air sensor? And how exactly did you mount it? Also how did you plug the hold in the backing place?

[blowndodge]

I ran 18 ga wire. I used a regular metal bolt and the nut that cinches down the air temp sensor down with the thin flat washer thats on the inside of the dog bowl. I ran the black wiring straight up underneath my gas tank, behind the plastic wiring loom covers at the steering stem and behind my right side chrome cover 6 inches below the top of my forks. behind that cover is part of your tubing for the front brakes lines. I used zip ties to secure it behind there and clipped off the excess. Pretty much invisible..

[krash]

Originally Posted by blowndodge

I ran 18 ga wire. I used a regular metal bolt and the nut that cinches down the air temp sensor down with the thin flat washer thats on the inside of the dog bowl. I ran the black wiring straight up underneath my gas tank, behind the plastic wiring loom covers at the steering stem and behind my right side chrome cover 6 inches below the top of my forks. behind that cover is part of your tubing for the front brakes lines. I used zip ties to secure it behind there and clipped off the excess. Pretty much invisible..

No Duct tape jobs not done right if you don't use duct tape

Seriously though, do you think this mod would be an improvement on any FI Nomad\Vulcan with or without a tfi, open intake or aftermarket exhaust?

[Monkeyman]

If this mod is done WITH a fuel processor, will it screw anything up? I have a V&H FuelPak that I plan to install this winter (along with the V&H duals and Chucksters intake).

[blowndodge]

I'm thinking yea... thats why the TFI was an to do item.. I might end up shutting it off completely if this summer I can't get my bike to ping in the heat of the day.. I know it's wishfull thinking but who knows...

Yea Ray, I haven't riden in many lava zones lately either so.....!!

[jandreu]

Brad, I don't doubt you. Just trying to make sense of this. I thought the amount of fresh air entering the air box on an open intake would not have time to heat up but based on Ray's response the Air temp sensor is probably actually reading a higher ambient temp based on the constantly present high heat caused by the engine transfered to the air box mounting plate and then transfered to the air temp sensor.

I'm with you...you guys may have found a solution to the issue of needing a fuel processor or not by just relocating the air temp sensor.

I'm off to the garage to move mine!

[Sin City Stan]

I think we're talking about two kinds of heat. The ambient Temp. in the air box is probably very close to the outdoor air Temp. except when idling. However, if the metal is 250F the Infra-Red heat radiating from the metal could indeed affect the air temp sensor.

Think of a cool Fall day with bright sunshine. You're cool when in the shade and out of the sun's IR short wave radiation heat. Step into the sun and you feel the Sun's IR radiation even though the surrounding air is cool. A campfire is another good example of IR radiation.

Bottom line, get the air temp sensor outta there.

[Monkeyman]

Stupid question time. How can you tell if you need a fuel processor? If I add the FuelPak and move the air temp sensor, how will I know if it's all messed up? Or, if I DON'T add the FuelPak but move the air temp sensor, how will I know? I have the FuelPak already and am about to order one of Chucksters dual plate intakes. No sense in installing something for nothing or trying something just to have an expensive fail.

Would a completely open intake (i.e. Chucksters single plate or dual plate without the dog bowl) make a difference?

[jandreu]

Monkeyman, the fuel processor is used to cure several issues but mostly to help with the lean condition caused by the factory ECU which in turn causes the dreaded and destructive "Ping". By enriching the mix you can run lower grades fuel also if you open up the intake and the exhaust a fuel processor is required to prevent pinging. Other issues with the Nomad [mine at least] that a fuel processor helps with is the low idle stumble. On a lot of bikes when the throttle is dropped quickly and the rpms bounce too low the engine will just die. I had it happen several times until I installed a fuel processor. I have the Cobra unit but from what I've read on the forum I think the Dobeck is the better choice.

I do know that the Fuel Processor gives me better throttle response as it has a pot that acts like an accelerator pump on a carbed bike and by enriching the mix at idle it helps with the low rpm "stumble". If relocating the air temp sensor, without the fuel processor turned on, prevents pinging on mid grade gas I will probaly go that route but will leave the "accelerator pump" pot turned on as it does help with throttle response and turn off the enriching pot.

Someone else may be able to explain this better.

What we are playing with now in relation to this thread is the theory that the air temp sensor "may" be causing part of the lean condition problem due to it is not actually reading ambient temp. Just a bunch of gear heads that can't leave well enough alone!

[blowndodge]

let me pour you another James!