RacnRay Throttle mod

[Pitchinguy]

Great mod! Gratz to the peeps who do their own & a big thanks to Ray for making it available for those who don't! Can we ride now?!!

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Netnorske

All good points Jared....but I think lost in the equation is that Ray put himself out there a bit with honorable intentions to provide a product/service that no one else was fulfilling....and despite rave reviews has taken some unnecessary heat in the process from any number of people both here and on other forums.

I don't think it got lost in any equation. I think what has happened is "Ray is someone that we can relate with, a real person and not a big company, but if this was a popular mod by Kuryakyn everyone would be shouting with joy if we figured out how to make it on our own." as I mentioned previously.

I have no idea what heat he has taken on other forums. This is the only one I participate in, but perhaps that heat is part of the "free market" many have said to be supporting.

Over-sized throttle cams are nothing new. And as Ray mentioned, he has seen many sport bikes over the years come into his shop with this mod. I welcome him to sell them as they are a great product. Just google "speed throttle cam", "quick throttle mod", "throttle cam mod", etc. and you'll see what the "free-market" has to offer.

Where Ray erred imho is by keeping the product a secret. Perhaps he never called it a secret, but he never posted a picture, never explained what it was (only what it did), never openly explained what the price was, and he required you to mail him your throttle tube--you can't install it yourself--so you don't see it before it's installed, etc., so it became a secret. If he would have been upfront about the product that was for sale instead of doing it all through PMs, I don't think anyone would have questioned his sincerity.

If Ray is being sincere and wanting to sell a good, solid product, I invite him to go to the Free Classifieds portion of the forum and write his advert explaining what it does, what it looks like, and what it costs.

Remember that we are all just average people trying to make ends meet too. I'm not trying to take away from a single one of his sales. I would love for people to buy his product if they knew what they were paying for (which, in fact, may be something worth buying). What I don't like is my friends being misled and/or being misled myself.

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by Utah Motorcyclist

I don't think it got lost in any equation. I think what has happened is "Ray is someone that we can relate with, a real person and not a big company, but if this was a popular mod by Kuryakyn everyone would be shouting with joy if we figured out how to make it on our own." as I mentioned previously.

I have no idea what heat he has taken on other forums. This is the only one I participate in, but perhaps that heat is part of the "free market" many have said to be supporting.

Over-sized throttle cams are nothing new. And as Ray mentioned, he has seen many sport bikes over the years come into his shop with this mod. I welcome him to sell them as they are a great product. Just google "speed throttle cam", "quick throttle mod", "throttle cam mod", etc. and you'll see what the "free-market" has to offer.

Where Ray erred imho is by keeping the product a secret. Perhaps he never called it a secret, but he never posted a picture, never explained what it was (only what it did), never openly explained what the price was, and he required you to mail him your throttle tube--you can't install it yourself--so you don't see it before it's installed, etc., so it became a secret. If he would have been upfront about the product that was for sale instead of doing it all through PMs, I don't think anyone would have questioned his sincerity.

If Ray is being sincere and wanting to sell a good, solid product, I invite him to go to the Free Classifieds portion of the forum and write his advert explaining what it does, what it looks like, and what it costs.

Remember that we are all just average people trying to make ends meet too. I'm not trying to take away from a single one of his sales. I would love for people to buy his product if they knew what they were paying for (which, in fact, may be something worth buying). What I don't like is my friends being misled and/or being misled myself.

AGAIN I RE-ITERATE...I NEVER initaiated advertising my mod...FRIGGIN PERIOD!! On this and all the other forums where a thread concerning the results of my mod was started was by someone who had purchased my mod and was happy with the results. I never have laid claim to any originality, but i do claim to have done the research based on my own seat-of-my-pants dyno and my DynoJet dyno on MY skoot. I have never denied ANYONE TO google whatever they want to google, to make their own, to copy my design. ANY AND ALL those who have commented that my idea was not new, or can do it themselves I have not criticized them or made any negative response to their post(s). As a 36 year veteran of the South Florida m/c industry I have learned more about skoots, done more with skoots and will continue to do more with skoots than ANYONE here on this forum. With that I have learned to trust the workmanship of MY shop, so sending out my mod and entrusting others to do proper installation it is just not in the cards. If I do the mod, I KNOW it's done right and I don't have to worry that someone may get hurt if they do it wrong.

I NEVER SAID I HAVE had sportbikes come into my shop with this mod, (your statement copied and pasted) "And as Ray mentioned, he has seen many sport bikes over the years come into his shop with this mod." What I said was (copied and pasted)"Owning my own HI-PO m/c shop I have ridden MANY sportbikes over the last few years that are and have been ride-by-wire." YOUR statement is MISLEADING!!

This thread like all the others started off with the comments of a forum member that had my mod done and was happy with the results, and since others have had this mod done and are happy AND HAVE POSTED SUCH. NOT ONE complaint from anyone other than those who feel that in me NOT showing a picture is comparable to some form of insincerity. How can I be insincere when there are many positive comments? These comments I DO NOT solicit, they are comments from consumers that have invested their money in a product that I supply. They do have the choice of "googling" and doing it themselves, but they choose to rely on me. Just think, we all have the ability to cook for ourselves, and to "google" recipes, but sometimes we end up going out to eat when we could cook it up ourselves!!

So, to everyone who has had some doubt or other question of my intent, my character, my methods or even THINK I am being misleading is just plain WRONG and are ignoring the positive comments from those that have had the mod done. If anyone wants to label my mod as a"quick turn", "quarter turn" or "throttle cam mod" that's fine with me. Call it what you want.

The motorcycling community is a big sand box that we ALL can play in, and to have such disention among forum members is disappointing.

Now i'm gonna go out and do something I am truly blessed with and that is to have been able to combine my love of skoots with EARNING my living working on them and providing products to those who will benefit from them and spend their money. Anyone who does not want anything I have to offer wiil not be a customer of my shop by their choice, not mine.

THANX
RACNRAY

[Jared]

Just to clarify.....I guess I was misled to think you were advertising your mod for sale in your second post as a member of this forum entitled "Improving throttle Response..." where you said "I am offering this mod to anyone seeking a perfomance improvement on the Vulcans, including the 2000(not that beast needs more!!). Any one interested can pm me for details."

And as the person who has "learned more about skoots, done more with skoots and will continue to do more with skoots than ANYONE here on this forum" are you saying you haven't seen a bike with a "quick turn", "quarter turn" or "throttle cam mod"? Again, I guess I just assumed you had. Perhaps I assumed incorrectly.

Ray, I think you have all the right in the world to sell these or anything else. Please don't get too upset with me or anyone else questioning you. I know I'm not the only one with questions as I have had multiple members PM me recently.

If you are sincere and wanting to sell a good, solid product, why not go to the Free Classifieds portion of the forum and write an advert explaining what it does, what it looks like, and what it costs and put people's questions/concerns to rest?

[glwilson]

Do you suppose Heinz would give me the exact ingredients of their catsup so I could make my own without having to buy from them?

Don't think so...

No one has to state exactly what their product is... But rather only what the product/service provides (or it's benefits).

It appears some on here need to take a few economics classes

[Junior6996]

Who cares pay or do your own why wast time typing when you could be riding?

I personally paid my wife just ordered me a set from ray came with detailed instructions on install and adjustment very easy to do made a huge difference in confidence that throttle is there right now! I wondered how obvious the change would be but it was very noticeable as soon as I started the bike and 5 min into the test ride I was giggling with excitement it is great!!!

Thanks ray I would buy again for twice the price very worth the money in my opinion. :)

[ponch]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

AGAIN I RE-ITERATE...I NEVER initaiated advertising my mod...FRIGGIN PERIOD!! On this and all the other forums where a thread concerning the results of my mod was started was by someone who had purchased my mod and was happy with the results.

And I bet you encouraged it. The original complaint was that it came across like a Billy Mays infomercial. Basically you came to the table pushing a product before anyone knew who you were and it wasn't just this forum and the technique was the same. Res ipsa loquitur and I found it tacky at best.

I have no truck with you making and selling the product, but it isn't rocket science nor is it necessary. It basically changes the rate of throttle opening for a given rotation of the throttle grip. I suppose if someone turns the throttle with greater rotational speed, the effect would be the same? The other thing is that throttle by wire vehicles have built in limits and can override driver/rider input if it is programmed that way. Conversely I imagine it's theoretically if not practically possible to tune a vehicle's computer to do the same thing.

The only thing I will add is I wonder if there is any down side, mechanically, to doing this? Increased cable wear or binding, etc. I suppose their are risks to everything and if anyone modifies their motorcycle or car they assume that risk. Unless a lawyer gets involved.

[Duff]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

So, to everyone who has had some doubt or other question of my intent, my character, my methods or even THINK I am being misleading is just plain WRONG and are ignoring the positive comments from those that have had the mod done.

I asked you privately and in a kind manner if what I'd done before on sportbike throttles was what you are doing here. You refused to answer. You have a long run around that suggested this was not at all what you were doing when asked publicly. You are being misleading, and I find you arrogant and will damn sure never spend money on a product of yours because of that.

Your happy customers can think of that what they will, but I'm sure they're paying top dollar for something that some of them could have and would have easily done on their own, had your description not been so run around misleading.

[cactusjack]

Okay, so Ray's throttle mod is now public record. Unfortunately you can't stuff the genie back in the bottle. However, as long as there are guys willing to pay a dealer to install a set of pipes (a simple job), there will be those who will gladly pay Ray's price for this modification. That's fine, Ray can charge what he wants. As others have stated, this is the free market at work, and I have no issues with someone charging money for a product or service that a buyer perceives a value in.

What I take objection to is Ray's apparent claims that this idea was original. This is from a post he made 2 days after joining this forum:

I did all the initial R&D, measuring, purchasing of materials (i actually already had the 6061-t6 aircraft aluminum in stock), fabrication, and follow up testing. In offering this to the public i can garrantee a performacne increase thru better throttle response and accelleration. I reserve the right to not post pics as i have worked very hard on this and in the interest of trying to protect one of the aspects of how i earn my living.

The concept is neither new or original. It may be the first time it was tried on a 1700, but it is definitely not the first attempt on a motorcycle. The information on this simple device has been in the public domain for years.

So if you are so inclined, do your own mod. If you'd rather pay to have it done for you, then contact Ray. Hopefully Ray will continue to earn some money from this to recoup his investment in r&d time.

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by Utah Motorcyclist

Just to clarify.....I guess I was misled to think you were advertising your mod for sale in your second post as a member of this forum entitled "Improving throttle Response..." where you said "I am offering this mod to anyone seeking a perfomance improvement on the Vulcans, including the 2000(not that beast needs more!!). Any one interested can pm me for details."

And as the person who has "learned more about skoots, done more with skoots and will continue to do more with skoots than ANYONE here on this forum" are you saying you haven't seen a bike with a "quick turn", "quarter turn" or "throttle cam mod"? Again, I guess I just assumed you had. Perhaps I assumed incorrectly.

Ray, I think you have all the right in the world to sell these or anything else. Please don't get too upset with me or anyone else questioning you. I know I'm not the only one with questions as I have had multiple members PM me recently.

If you are sincere and wanting to sell a good, solid product, why not go to the Free Classifieds portion of the forum and write an advert explaining what it does, what it looks like, and what it costs and put people's questions/concerns to rest?

I am sincere and the only people who have questions and concerns are those that are un-willing to consider the feedback from others. I have very thoroughly explained what it does but my explanations fall on deaf ears.

Originally Posted by glwilson

Do you suppose Heinz would give me the exact ingredients of their catsup so I could make my own without having to buy from them?

Don't think so...

No one has to state exactly what their product is... But rather only what the product/service provides (or it's benefits).

It appears some on here need to take a few economics classes

THANX

Originally Posted by Junior6996

Who cares pay or do your own why wast time typing when you could be riding?

I personally paid my wife just ordered me a set from ray came with detailed instructions on install and adjustment very easy to do made a huge difference in confidence that throttle is there right now! I wondered how obvious the change would be but it was very noticeable as soon as I started the bike and 5 min into the test ride I was giggling with excitement it is great!!!

Thanks ray I would buy again for twice the price very worth the money in my opinion. :)

THAT'S ALL THE PROOF ANYONE SHOULD NEED!!

Originally Posted by ponch

And I bet you encouraged it. The original complaint was that it came across like a Billy Mays infomercial. Basically you came to the table pushing a product before anyone knew who you were and it wasn't just this forum and the technique was the same. Res ipsa loquitur and I found it tacky at best.

I have no truck with you making and selling the product, but it isn't rocket science nor is it necessary. It basically changes the rate of throttle opening for a given rotation of the throttle grip. I suppose if someone turns the throttle with greater rotational speed, the effect would be the same? The other thing is that throttle by wire vehicles have built in limits and can override driver/rider input if it is programmed that way. Conversely I imagine it's theoretically if not practically possible to tune a vehicle's computer to do the same thing.

The only thing I will add is I wonder if there is any down side, mechanically, to doing this? Increased cable wear or binding, etc. I suppose their are risks to everything and if anyone modifies their motorcycle or car they assume that risk. Unless a lawyer gets involved.

The only thing I ever asked anyone was to let me know how it worked, and many were kind enuff to post their results on the WWW. Sorry that's not good enuff. I thought that any kind of feedback, good or bad that informs and educates others is beneficial. So does this mean that when I read your's, jareds or anyones opinions on a matter that I should demand proof that your opinion is legit and is the end all to end all?? I think NOT.

With 36 years in the biz I'm NOT gonna make something for my skoot or offer it to the public where there will be a penalty in the long run. I have a conscious and a responsibility to those who entrust their skoots to me. I do not have a responsibility to anyone who doubts me, calls my methods "billy mays". I don't care if my style does not suit what or how you think I should.

Originally Posted by Duff

I asked you privately and in a kind manner if what I'd done before on sportbike throttles was what you are doing here. You refused to answer. You have a long run around that suggested this was not at all what you were doing when asked publicly. You are being misleading, and I find you arrogant and will damn sure never spend money on a product of yours because of that.

Your happy customers can think of that what they will, but I'm sure they're paying top dollar for something that some of them could have and would have easily done on their own, had your description not been so run around misleading.

And I HAVE A RIGHT TO not ANSWER...sorry I don't play into your hand.

THANX TO ALL, I take all and everyone's comments and I learn from them. Thing is I'm not gonna change who I am or how I do biz for the very few. I am never gonna please everyone and those that are not happy with me, my so called arrogance or any aspect of how they see I conduct myself I am powerless over and will not try to influence anymore.

RACNRAY

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by cactusjack

Okay, so Ray's throttle mod is now public record. Unfortunately you can't stuff the genie back in the bottle. However, as long as there are guys willing to pay a dealer to install a set of pipes (a simple job), there will be those who will gladly pay Ray's price for this modification. That's fine, Ray can charge what he wants. As others have stated, this is the free market at work, and I have no issues with someone charging money for a product or service that a buyer perceives a value in.

What I take objection to is Ray's apparent claims that this idea was original. This is from a post he made 2 days after joining this forum:



The concept is neither new or original. It may be the first time it was tried on a 1700, but it is definitely not the first attempt on a motorcycle. The information on this simple device has been in the public domain for years.

So if you are so inclined, do your own mod. If you'd rather pay to have it done for you, then contact Ray. Hopefully Ray will continue to earn some money from this to recoup his investment in r&d time.

One last time,, where the heck did I state my idea was an original??!! LOL...all I see here is where I did the intiial R&D on my skoot. GEEZE...I had to start somewhere. OH WELL!!

RACNRAY

[Duff]

You absolutely have a right not to answer of course. But if you're not going to answer, don't answer period. Don't give a run around that suggests its not at all even remotely similar to what you're doing.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

I am sincere and the only people who have questions and concerns are those that are un-willing to consider the feedback from others. I have very thoroughly explained what it does but my explanations fall on deaf ears.



THANX



THAT'S ALL THE PROOF ANYONE SHOULD NEED!!



The only thing I ever asked anyone was to let me know how it worked, and many were kind enuff to post their results on the WWW. Sorry that's not good enuff. I thought that any kind of feedback, good or bad that informs and educates others is beneficial. So does this mean that when I read your's, jareds or anyones opinions on a matter that I should demand proof that your opinion is legit and is the end all to end all?? I think NOT.

With 36 years in the biz I'm NOT gonna make something for my skoot or offer it to the public where there will be a penalty in the long run. I have a conscious and a responsibility to those who entrust their skoots to me. I do not have a responsibility to anyone who doubts me, calls my methods "billy mays". I don't care if my style does not suit what or how you think I should.



And I HAVE A RIGHT TO not ANSWER...sorry I don't play into your hand.

THANX TO ALL, I take all and everyone's comments and I learn from them. Thing is I'm not gonna change who I am or how I do biz for the very few. I am never gonna please everyone and those that are not happy with me, my so called arrogance or any aspect of how they see I conduct myself I am powerless over and will not try to influence anymore.

RACNRAY

I may not be able to prove it, but I would bet you asked those people to post as an intro to sell your product. To that end, I think all you cared about was making money, which is fine, but it's hokey when done in such a way. It's like saying to a woman in the first few minutes of a first date, when will we screw. That's putting the cart before the horse. Usually such relationships work out in the long run when you develop a relationship first and people get to know you and then what the value proposition is. In this case, you wanted to cut to the front of the line as it were. That's fine, because at least we know who you are, 36 years of experience or not.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

One last time,, where the heck did I state my idea was an original??!! LOL...all I see here is where I did the intiial R&D on my skoot. GEEZE...I had to start somewhere. OH WELL!!

RACNRAY

May be you meant you were Ray's Original Pizza...Ok, it's a New York thing...

[Old Crow]

Originally Posted by ponch

I may not be able to prove it, but I would bet you asked those people to post as an intro to sell your product. To that end, I think all you cared about was making money, which is fine, but it's hokey when done in such a way.

That's exactly the way it came across here and in at least two other forums that I read almost daily. A post or two by someone proclaiming the joys of the mod, then almost immediatly posts by Ray talking it up even more.

What bothered me the most, though, were the initial claims, or at the very least a strong inference of more available horsepower, only reluctantly described as more horspower for a given amount of rotation on the grip. Huge difference there. Don't know if it was intentional, but given the way things were presented it certainly seemed so to me.