Vaquero intake leaks - Page 3

blowndodge · 12-18-2011, 04:38 PM

Hey Ray,

glad to see someone move that air temp sensor first! My 2006 Nomad had the worst pinging problem and I tried the resistor and TPS changing and nothing really worked to the level I liked.

The resistor sounded promising as I saw it done on Gadget's page. After failing and not stopping the pinging I bought a TFI and was done with it. Even with the TFI the ECU tuning by air temp was a little off. The bike ran well enough but I found that if I tuned the first pot in 60 degree weather compared to 100 degree weather the tuning was drastically different. The stock ECU was still messing with my modified richer settings.

Thinking about why the resistor mod failed it suddenly dawned on me (I hate it when that happens!). Gadget's site shows a spread sheet how the resistor changes based on the ambient air temp (outdoors). That's the problem, the air temp behind the dog bowl where the sensor is located I've measured 275 degrees! No matter what resistor you had at 275 that bike is still getting leaned out to the max by the ECU.. that's the problem, as the bike gets hotter the ECU keeps getting leaner to maintain the air/fuel ration which makes the bike hotter and so on and so on.

Well yesterday I did your mod and removed the air temp sensor from the right side dog bowl and moved it to behind the chrome covers on the triple tree. I had always ran the standard 3,5 1, 9 on the TFI or near there...

Just to see if this would work I turned the setting on near the minimum 2,2 1,9 and put mid-grade gas and took a 140 mile ride this morning in cool weather. I also mounted the crash bar covers which help promote pinging in warmer days by keeping the engine warmer. I was half expecting to hear that death rattle all day long!

The bike ran way different, didn't ping, and riding 2 up averaging a true 70-75 I got 40mpg's and the Nomad just ran better. I guess the ECU operates better with the air temp sensor reading 65 degrees instead of 275 behind the dog bowl!!

I almost wonder now if everyone moved their air temp sensor if they would need a aftermarket fuel processor?

jandreu · 12-18-2011, 05:23 PM

Ray and Brad,
This is an interesting theory about the location of the air temp sensor. I've always wondered why it is mounted on the intake if the sensor is actually designed to read ambient outside temp. At speed I wounder if the air passing thru the air box actually has enough time to heat up to the temp of the air box [caused by motor heat] or if it actually is reading ambient temp [I would think the amount of air being passed thru does not actually heat up to the engine temp.]. Also I wounder if the temp sensor actually reads the ambient air temp or is affected by the temp of the metal airbox instead of the actual air temp.

I have a Hypercharger, stock but de-baffled exhaust and a Cobra TFI set at 3,4,0. The bike has never pinged on 93 or 89 fuel [I've never tried 87] even before I added the Cobra. When I added the Hypercharger I installed the Cobra "just in case" and it has improved my throttle response however the best gas mileage I've gotten is around 38-39 mpg and buddies riding behind me say my exhaust smells rich. I still will get a low idle stumble if I set the idle below 1000 rpm. My plugs look just right, nice golden tan to brown electrodes. I do have the exhaust reed valves removed and get no popping on deceleration at all.

Brad you said that as the air temp goes up the ECU wants to make the bike leaner. With this in mind, having the air temp sensor reading a lower temp should make the bike run richer as you said.

Just looking for comments about this and different opinions.

**Cajunrider** · 12-18-2011, 05:03 PM

Great information in this thread. Thanks Ray and BD.

**Cajunrider** · 12-18-2011, 07:24 PM

James, After installing my TFI, the pinging remained but much less than before. I tried 87octane fuel but had to move back up to 89 in the warm months. Pulling the trailer up hills caused pinging no matter where I set the pots. I then installed the V&H baggers which increased top end power a little but I still had some pinging. I finished off the power mods by installing Chuckster's dual plate intake which eliminated the crossover tube. I can't make it ping now with 87. Taking the crossover out of the mix definitely cools the intake air. My temp sensor is still located on the intake plate but the air passing over it has to be much cooler.

jandreu · 12-18-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajunrider

James, After installing my TFI, the pinging remained but much less than before. I tried octane fuel but had to move back up to 89 in the warm months. Pulling the trailer up hills caused pinging no matter where I set the pots. I then installed the V&H baggers which increased top end power a little but I still had some pinging. I finished off the power mods by installing Chuckster's dual plate intake which eliminated the crossover tube. I can't make it ping now with 87. Taking the crossover out of the mix definitely cools the intake air. My temp sensor is still located on the intake plate but the air passing over it has to be much cooler.

Cajunrider, I agree with the stock dog bowl and crossover tube setup the intake air has more time to heat up on the way thru however with an open air intake of any design where the air is not passing from one side to the other thru a tube running between the cylinders I don't think it would have the chance to reach a temp much more than ambient. I have no idea how much our 1600 CC mills gulp each second but it's a lot and the air would have to remain in the elevated temp environment for at least a second to heat up.

So my question is do we feel the air temp sensor relocation is really a benefit with an open intake. I'm not sure it is.

Brad, I'll be looking for your comments after running without the TFI, Of course for it to be a real test you should run one way without the TFI and the relocated air temp sensor and the return trip without the TFI and the air temp sensor back in the stock location. This would be an apples to apples comparison. However IF you are still running with the crossover tube than the air "may" heat up more and cause a lean condition that would not exist with an open air box or the air temp sensor relocated.

Interesting work here guys, RacnRay what are your thoughts about this?

As a side note I guess I'm a lucky one as my Nomad has never pinged under any load even when bone stock as long as I run 89 and up octane. It's always got bad gas millage even when bone stock so I suppect my bike was setup from the factory on the rich side of the spec's.

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why would the bike be designed to run leaner in warm weather? Leaner makes it run hotter and as Brad said earlier it's a viscous cycle, the hotter the leaner the more it pings.

I'm no expert by any means, is there any way to confirm that increased air temp does cause a lean condition thru the ECU?

ponch · 12-18-2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jandreu

Cajunrider, I agree with the stock dog bowl and crossover tube setup the intake air has more time to heat up on the way thru however with an open air intake of any design where the air is not passing from one side to the other thru a tube running between the cylinders I don't think it would have the chance to reach a temp much more than ambient. I have no idea how much our 1600 CC mills gulp each second but it's a lot and the air would have to remain in the elevated temp environment for at least a second to heat up.

So my question is do we feel the air temp sensor relocation is really a benefit with an open intake. I'm not sure it is.

Brad, I'll be looking for your comments after running without the TFI, Of course for it to be a real test you should run one way without the TFI and the relocated air temp sensor and the return trip without the TFI and the air temp sensor back in the stock location. This would be an apples to apples comparison. However IF you are still running with the crossover tube than the air "may" heat up more and cause a lean condition that would not exist with an open air box or the air temp sensor relocated.

Interesting work here guys, RacnRay what are your thoughts about this?

As a side note I guess I'm a lucky one as my Nomad has never pinged under any load even when bone stock as long as I run 89 and up octane. It's always got bad gas millage even when bone stock so I suppect my bike was setup from the factory on the rich side of the spec's.

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why would the bike be designed to run leaner in warm weather? Leaner makes it run hotter and as Brad said earlier it's a viscous cycle, the hotter the leaner the more it pings.

I'm no expert by any means, is there any way to confirm that increased air temp does cause a lean condition thru the ECU?

Emissions requirements.

blowndodge · 12-19-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jandreu

Cajunrider, I agree with the stock dog bowl and crossover tube setup the intake air has more time to heat up on the way thru however with an open air intake of any design where the air is not passing from one side to the other thru a tube running between the cylinders I don't think it would have the chance to reach a temp much more than ambient. I have no idea how much our 1600 CC mills gulp each second but it's a lot and the air would have to remain in the elevated temp environment for at least a second to heat up.

So my question is do we feel the air temp sensor relocation is really a benefit with an open intake. I'm not sure it is.

Brad, I'll be looking for your comments after running without the TFI, Of course for it to be a real test you should run one way without the TFI and the relocated air temp sensor and the return trip without the TFI and the air temp sensor back in the stock location. This would be an apples to apples comparison. However IF you are still running with the crossover tube than the air "may" heat up more and cause a lean condition that would not exist with an open air box or the air temp sensor relocated.

Interesting work here guys, RacnRay what are your thoughts about this?

As a side note I guess I'm a lucky one as my Nomad has never pinged under any load even when bone stock as long as I run 89 and up octane. It's always got bad gas millage even when bone stock so I suppect my bike was setup from the factory on the rich side of the spec's.

One thing I can't get my head wrapped around is why would the bike be designed to run leaner in warm weather? Leaner makes it run hotter and as Brad said earlier it's a viscous cycle, the hotter the leaner the more it pings.

I'm no expert by any means, is there any way to confirm that increased air temp does cause a lean condition thru the ECU?

James I've ran my TFI for over 20K miles. I already know what results I gained from it. I've also measured the temp right behind the dog bowl and got the 275 degrees. It's not the crossover tube heating up the air it's the entire right side bowl and backing plate mounted right next to both cylinders that building up the heat.

If you doubt it, idle your bike until the fan kicks in then shut off the bike and just try to take off the bowl!! You'll burn the shit out of your fingers! I can hardly even touch the rubber tubes going to the fast idle solenoids. It's hot and I've measured it and it's not from the crossover tube.

RACNRAY · 12-19-2011, 01:08 AM

I first moved an a/t sensor on my modified Busa back in 2001, and we perform this on all the skoots with modified engines. On my Busa it evened out the way the engine ran, from start-up to full hot, and the Busa has a ram-air intake, so at a stand still or low speeds it is a VERY fresh air system, and the higher speeds it will start to negate the natural vacuum in the intake, and at very high speeds it will actually provide a small increase in manifold pressure, a "boost" condition.

Every skoot we perform this mod on runs better. I don't know why i didn't do this back when i made my intake system.

FYI...the Busa manual lists 4 temps to check the air temp sensor at, requiring the sensor to be ....HEATED!!

The temps the sensor is to be checked at is, check these out...68 dg...122 dg...176 dg...230 dg!!! Now unless one is riding in an active volcano, i am not aware of ANY spot on earth where anyone rides in above 176 dg temps, much less 230!! This represents the fact that even tho one would believe the constant supply of fresh air into an intake system would keep intake temps close to ambient, heat radiating from the engine does have an affect on the air temp inside the a/b.

RACNRAY

blowndodge · 12-18-2011, 09:44 PM

James, this air temp I measured was correct underneath the dog bowl. always over 250.. as Mitch pointed out once you open the dog bowl with an open air cleaner that trapped lethal hot air no longer gets trapped behind the dog bowl. I didn't open the right side as i don't like the additional air intake noise. That's just me.

Next weekend I'm riding down to my cousins house the day after Xmas and I'm shutting off the TFI completely just to see what happens... I'm convinced that taking the sensor away from massive engine heat trapped by the dog bowl has it's advantages!!!

watchman · 12-19-2011, 09:33 AM

Question: What size wire did you use when you moved the air sensor? And how exactly did you mount it? Also how did you plug the hold in the backing place?

blowndodge · 12-19-2011, 10:44 AM

I ran 18 ga wire. I used a regular metal bolt and the nut that cinches down the air temp sensor down with the thin flat washer thats on the inside of the dog bowl. I ran the black wiring straight up underneath my gas tank, behind the plastic wiring loom covers at the steering stem and behind my right side chrome cover 6 inches below the top of my forks. behind that cover is part of your tubing for the front brakes lines. I used zip ties to secure it behind there and clipped off the excess. Pretty much invisible..

**krash** · 12-19-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blowndodge

I ran 18 ga wire. I used a regular metal bolt and the nut that cinches down the air temp sensor down with the thin flat washer thats on the inside of the dog bowl. I ran the black wiring straight up underneath my gas tank, behind the plastic wiring loom covers at the steering stem and behind my right side chrome cover 6 inches below the top of my forks. behind that cover is part of your tubing for the front brakes lines. I used zip ties to secure it behind there and clipped off the excess. Pretty much invisible..

No Duct tape

jobs not done right if you don't use duct tape

Seriously though, do you think this mod would be an improvement on any FI Nomad\Vulcan with or without a tfi, open intake or aftermarket exhaust?

Monkeyman · 12-19-2011, 01:15 PM

If this mod is done WITH a fuel processor, will it screw anything up? I have a V&H FuelPak that I plan to install this winter (along with the V&H duals and Chucksters intake).

blowndodge · 12-19-2011, 02:04 PM

I'm thinking yea... thats why the TFI was an to do item.. I might end up shutting it off completely if this summer I can't get my bike to ping in the heat of the day.. I know it's wishfull thinking but who knows...

Yea Ray, I haven't riden in many lava zones lately either so.....!!

jandreu · 12-19-2011, 06:11 PM

Brad, I don't doubt you. Just trying to make sense of this. I thought the amount of fresh air entering the air box on an open intake would not have time to heat up but based on Ray's response the Air temp sensor is probably actually reading a higher ambient temp based on the constantly present high heat caused by the engine transfered to the air box mounting plate and then transfered to the air temp sensor.

I'm with you...you guys may have found a solution to the issue of needing a fuel processor or not by just relocating the air temp sensor.

I'm off to the garage to move mine!

12-18-2011, 04:38 PM	#1
blowndodge Sr. Contributor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Washington City, Utah Posts: 16,474	Hey Ray, glad to see someone move that air temp sensor first! My 2006 Nomad had the worst pinging problem and I tried the resistor and TPS changing and nothing really worked to the level I liked. The resistor sounded promising as I saw it done on Gadget's page. After failing and not stopping the pinging I bought a TFI and was done with it. Even with the TFI the ECU tuning by air temp was a little off. The bike ran well enough but I found that if I tuned the first pot in 60 degree weather compared to 100 degree weather the tuning was drastically different. The stock ECU was still messing with my modified richer settings. Thinking about why the resistor mod failed it suddenly dawned on me (I hate it when that happens!). Gadget's site shows a spread sheet how the resistor changes based on the ambient air temp (outdoors). That's the problem, the air temp behind the dog bowl where the sensor is located I've measured 275 degrees! No matter what resistor you had at 275 that bike is still getting leaned out to the max by the ECU.. that's the problem, as the bike gets hotter the ECU keeps getting leaner to maintain the air/fuel ration which makes the bike hotter and so on and so on. Well yesterday I did your mod and removed the air temp sensor from the right side dog bowl and moved it to behind the chrome covers on the triple tree. I had always ran the standard 3,5 1, 9 on the TFI or near there... Just to see if this would work I turned the setting on near the minimum 2,2 1,9 and put mid-grade gas and took a 140 mile ride this morning in cool weather. I also mounted the crash bar covers which help promote pinging in warmer days by keeping the engine warmer. I was half expecting to hear that death rattle all day long! The bike ran way different, didn't ping, and riding 2 up averaging a true 70-75 I got 40mpg's and the Nomad just ran better. I guess the ECU operates better with the air temp sensor reading 65 degrees instead of 275 behind the dog bowl!! I almost wonder now if everyone moved their air temp sensor if they would need a aftermarket fuel processor? __________________ I love my Victory Cross Country Tour 106. Smells like Victory! Ultra's are Limited There are two types of Harley riders. Those that trailer them and those that push them. The most Interesting Man in the World "Find the things in life you don't do well and don't do those things" Member # 0005 Login or Register to Remove Ads
	0

12-18-2011, 05:23 PM	#2
jandreu Sr. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Makawao, Hawaii Posts: 1,409	Ray and Brad, This is an interesting theory about the location of the air temp sensor. I've always wondered why it is mounted on the intake if the sensor is actually designed to read ambient outside temp. At speed I wounder if the air passing thru the air box actually has enough time to heat up to the temp of the air box [caused by motor heat] or if it actually is reading ambient temp [I would think the amount of air being passed thru does not actually heat up to the engine temp.]. Also I wounder if the temp sensor actually reads the ambient air temp or is affected by the temp of the metal airbox instead of the actual air temp. I have a Hypercharger, stock but de-baffled exhaust and a Cobra TFI set at 3,4,0. The bike has never pinged on 93 or 89 fuel [I've never tried 87] even before I added the Cobra. When I added the Hypercharger I installed the Cobra "just in case" and it has improved my throttle response however the best gas mileage I've gotten is around 38-39 mpg and buddies riding behind me say my exhaust smells rich. I still will get a low idle stumble if I set the idle below 1000 rpm. My plugs look just right, nice golden tan to brown electrodes. I do have the exhaust reed valves removed and get no popping on deceleration at all. Brad you said that as the air temp goes up the ECU wants to make the bike leaner. With this in mind, having the air temp sensor reading a lower temp should make the bike run richer as you said. Just looking for comments about this and different opinions. __________________ James Andreu '07 1600 Red/Silver VBA Member #1356 jandreu@hawaiiantel.net
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12-18-2011, 05:03 PM	#3
Cajunrider Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: (SE Louisiana) Posts: 8,340	Great information in this thread. Thanks Ray and BD. __________________ 2016 Electra Glide Ultra Limited CVO Palladium Silver / Phantom Blue 110 cu in SE 2012 Electra Glide Ultra Limited (Traded 6/22/16) Tequila Sunrise / HD Orange Vance & Hines true dual headers Rinehart 4" slip ons Screamin Eagle Super Tuner Screamin Eagle Stage 1 intake Dyno tuned H.O.G.# 4514015 2007 Nomad 1600 (Traded 6/23/12) VBA #482
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12-18-2011, 07:24 PM	#4
Cajunrider Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: (SE Louisiana) Posts: 8,340	James, After installing my TFI, the pinging remained but much less than before. I tried 87octane fuel but had to move back up to 89 in the warm months. Pulling the trailer up hills caused pinging no matter where I set the pots. I then installed the V&H baggers which increased top end power a little but I still had some pinging. I finished off the power mods by installing Chuckster's dual plate intake which eliminated the crossover tube. I can't make it ping now with 87. Taking the crossover out of the mix definitely cools the intake air. My temp sensor is still located on the intake plate but the air passing over it has to be much cooler. __________________ 2016 Electra Glide Ultra Limited CVO Palladium Silver / Phantom Blue 110 cu in SE 2012 Electra Glide Ultra Limited (Traded 6/22/16) Tequila Sunrise / HD Orange Vance & Hines true dual headers Rinehart 4" slip ons Screamin Eagle Super Tuner Screamin Eagle Stage 1 intake Dyno tuned H.O.G.# 4514015 2007 Nomad 1600 (Traded 6/23/12) VBA #482
	0

12-19-2011, 01:08 AM	#8
RACNRAY Sr. Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: SOUTH FLORIDA Posts: 1,210	I first moved an a/t sensor on my modified Busa back in 2001, and we perform this on all the skoots with modified engines. On my Busa it evened out the way the engine ran, from start-up to full hot, and the Busa has a ram-air intake, so at a stand still or low speeds it is a VERY fresh air system, and the higher speeds it will start to negate the natural vacuum in the intake, and at very high speeds it will actually provide a small increase in manifold pressure, a "boost" condition. Every skoot we perform this mod on runs better. I don't know why i didn't do this back when i made my intake system. FYI...the Busa manual lists 4 temps to check the air temp sensor at, requiring the sensor to be ....HEATED!! The temps the sensor is to be checked at is, check these out...68 dg...122 dg...176 dg...230 dg!!! Now unless one is riding in an active volcano, i am not aware of ANY spot on earth where anyone rides in above 176 dg temps, much less 230!! This represents the fact that even tho one would believe the constant supply of fresh air into an intake system would keep intake temps close to ambient, heat radiating from the engine does have an affect on the air temp inside the a/b. RACNRAY __________________ "TRUE HAPPINESS IS IN THE HEART, NOT IN THE OUTSIDE FIXES" WITH OVER 46 YEARS AS A MOTORCYCLE TECHNICIAN/HI-PO SHOP OWNER I AM A PURVEYOR OF FACT NOT FICTION! "WE LIVE OUR LIVES IN CHAINS NEVER KNOWING WE HAD THE KEY"
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12-18-2011, 09:44 PM	#9
blowndodge Sr. Contributor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Washington City, Utah Posts: 16,474	James, this air temp I measured was correct underneath the dog bowl. always over 250.. as Mitch pointed out once you open the dog bowl with an open air cleaner that trapped lethal hot air no longer gets trapped behind the dog bowl. I didn't open the right side as i don't like the additional air intake noise. That's just me. Next weekend I'm riding down to my cousins house the day after Xmas and I'm shutting off the TFI completely just to see what happens... I'm convinced that taking the sensor away from massive engine heat trapped by the dog bowl has it's advantages!!! __________________ I love my Victory Cross Country Tour 106. Smells like Victory! Ultra's are Limited There are two types of Harley riders. Those that trailer them and those that push them. The most Interesting Man in the World "Find the things in life you don't do well and don't do those things" Member # 0005
	0

12-19-2011, 09:33 AM	#10
watchman Sr. Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Macon, Missouri Posts: 1,175	Question: What size wire did you use when you moved the air sensor? And how exactly did you mount it? Also how did you plug the hold in the backing place?
	0

12-19-2011, 10:44 AM	#11
blowndodge Sr. Contributor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Washington City, Utah Posts: 16,474	I ran 18 ga wire. I used a regular metal bolt and the nut that cinches down the air temp sensor down with the thin flat washer thats on the inside of the dog bowl. I ran the black wiring straight up underneath my gas tank, behind the plastic wiring loom covers at the steering stem and behind my right side chrome cover 6 inches below the top of my forks. behind that cover is part of your tubing for the front brakes lines. I used zip ties to secure it behind there and clipped off the excess. Pretty much invisible.. __________________ I love my Victory Cross Country Tour 106. Smells like Victory! Ultra's are Limited There are two types of Harley riders. Those that trailer them and those that push them. The most Interesting Man in the World "Find the things in life you don't do well and don't do those things" Member # 0005
	0

12-19-2011, 01:15 PM	#13
Monkeyman Top Contributor Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: North Wilkesboro, NC Posts: 6,289	If this mod is done WITH a fuel processor, will it screw anything up? I have a V&H FuelPak that I plan to install this winter (along with the V&H duals and Chucksters intake). __________________ Christopher "Monkeyman" Gray ---------------------------- Widows Sons "Overseers" Patriot Guard Rider USArmy 1987-1990 2021 Can Am Spyder RT 2018 Can Am Spyder RT Limited - SOLD 2014 Nomad - SOLD 2012 Victory Vision - SOLD 2007 Black Nomad - SOLD VMC #9367 VBA #1860
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12-19-2011, 02:04 PM	#14
blowndodge Sr. Contributor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Washington City, Utah Posts: 16,474	I'm thinking yea... thats why the TFI was an to do item.. I might end up shutting it off completely if this summer I can't get my bike to ping in the heat of the day.. I know it's wishfull thinking but who knows... Yea Ray, I haven't riden in many lava zones lately either so.....!! __________________ I love my Victory Cross Country Tour 106. Smells like Victory! Ultra's are Limited There are two types of Harley riders. Those that trailer them and those that push them. The most Interesting Man in the World "Find the things in life you don't do well and don't do those things" Member # 0005
	0

12-19-2011, 06:11 PM	#15
jandreu Sr. Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Makawao, Hawaii Posts: 1,409	Brad, I don't doubt you. Just trying to make sense of this. I thought the amount of fresh air entering the air box on an open intake would not have time to heat up but based on Ray's response the Air temp sensor is probably actually reading a higher ambient temp based on the constantly present high heat caused by the engine transfered to the air box mounting plate and then transfered to the air temp sensor. I'm with you...you guys may have found a solution to the issue of needing a fuel processor or not by just relocating the air temp sensor. I'm off to the garage to move mine! __________________ James Andreu '07 1600 Red/Silver VBA Member #1356 jandreu@hawaiiantel.net
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