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Old 06-20-2014, 01:28 AM   #1
Jared   Jared is offline
 
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Troubleshooting a V2K

I know that members here aren't too familiar with the Vulcan 2000, but this forum is better than any other Vulcan forum, so I figured I'd start here.

Tonight I went riding with some fellow Vulcan riders and one of them rides a beautiful V2K classic. While we were enjoying a meal he started picking my brain concerning some problems the bike has been having and one of the problem had me stumped. He actually let me take the bike for a spin to recreate the problem and sure enough as day I was able to create it multiple times.

In second gear, and seemingly only in second gear, at about 38mph (no tach) the bike misfires. It almost felt like it was just a single cylinder too. It doesn't stall. The bike keeps going, but it's quite noticeable when it happens. The bike actually jerks fairly hard when it happens.

If you accelerate slowly or shift early it doesn't happen.

Any ideas?
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:02 AM   #2
kawboysix   kawboysix is offline
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But only in 2nd gear?

That's right at 3000 rpm.

1st gear 24 mph
2nd gear 37 mph
3rd gear 50 mph. at 3000 rpm on the v2k. Try 1st,2nd and 3rd gears at these speeds with the same roll on throttle acceleration as you would to try and duplicate the problem that occurs in 2nd gear, in 1st and 3rd also.

Find out if it does it when the engine is cold also or only once it's warmed up. It doesn't sound like an ignition misfire if it's only happening in second gear and only at the certain speed. Possibly a problem with the ECU or maybe the fuel controller if he has one. I'm not talking from experience now so bare with me. I'm reading into ideas from another thread / another forum. Says to disconnect the aftermarket fuel controller, if he has one, and see if the problem goes away or changes. You could try this for starters.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:06 AM   #3
RACNRAY   RACNRAY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared View Post
I know that members here aren't too familiar with the Vulcan 2000, but this forum is better than any other Vulcan forum, so I figured I'd start here.

Tonight I went riding with some fellow Vulcan riders and one of them rides a beautiful V2K classic. While we were enjoying a meal he started picking my brain concerning some problems the bike has been having and one of the problem had me stumped. He actually let me take the bike for a spin to recreate the problem and sure enough as day I was able to create it multiple times.

In second gear, and seemingly only in second gear, at about 38mph (no tach) the bike misfires. It almost felt like it was just a single cylinder too. It doesn't stall. The bike keeps going, but it's quite noticeable when it happens. The bike actually jerks fairly hard when it happens.

If you accelerate slowly or shift early it doesn't happen.

Any ideas?
Classic symptoms of second gear jumping out then back into engagement. Depending on the condition of second gear and it's related shift components it can handle only so much torque. Whatever that point is when it is exceeded one of the gears slides out of engagement then back in. This is felt only when enuff torque(acceleration) surpasses second gear's ability to remain engaged, and is felt as a jerk. Ridden hard enuff second gear will go thru it's disengagement/re-engagement cycle repeatedly.

To minimize wear on the components I recommend NOT ridin the skoot in any manner which causes this to happen. Damage has already happened, further occurrences will only make it worse.

Typical repairs will be replacing both of the gears involved with second gear. I highly recommend undercutting the new gears to minimize this happening again. IF the original gears are not worn too bad, I have been able to undercut them which repairs the damage and establishes that undercut surface. Also the shift fork will have some damage and the shift drum slot for the second gear shift fork must be inspected for damage/wear.

RACNRAY
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:53 AM   #4
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You're having trouble shooting a V2K? I suggest you try hollow points.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:55 AM   #5
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You're having trouble shooting a V2K? I suggest you try hollow points.
But how do you cook 'em after shooting? I bet they taste like skeet.



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Old 06-20-2014, 10:57 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by cactusjack View Post
You're having trouble shooting a V2K? I suggest you try hollow points.
And along comes the peanut gallery.
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:12 AM   #7
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Thank God for the peanut gallery, they made me laff and I needed that today!!!

RACNRAY
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:27 AM   #8
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Damage has already happened, further occurrences will only make it worse.
What would likely cause the damage?
 
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Old 06-20-2014, 12:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACNRAY View Post
Classic symptoms of second gear jumping out then back into engagement. Depending on the condition of second gear and it's related shift components it can handle only so much torque. Whatever that point is when it is exceeded one of the gears slides out of engagement then back in. This is felt only when enuff torque(acceleration) surpasses second gear's ability to remain engaged, and is felt as a jerk. Ridden hard enuff second gear will go thru it's disengagement/re-engagement cycle repeatedly.

To minimize wear on the components I recommend NOT ridin the skoot in any manner which causes this to happen. Damage has already happened, further occurrences will only make it worse.

Typical repairs will be replacing both of the gears involved with second gear. I highly recommend undercutting the new gears to minimize this happening again. IF the original gears are not worn too bad, I have been able to undercut them which repairs the damage and establishes that undercut surface. Also the shift fork will have some damage and the shift drum slot for the second gear shift fork must be inspected for damage/wear.

RACNRAY
That sound right! What causes the damage? Do you think most dealerships would be able to make the repair?
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Old 06-20-2014, 12:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
What would likely cause the damage?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared View Post
That sound right! What causes the damage? Do you think most dealerships would be able to make the repair?
Over time, mileage, wear and tear and maybe a few missed shifts or as I found doin gear failures on some skoots like the ZX-9, M109, poor design can play a role.

Skoots use what is called a "constant mesh" transmission which does not require the space of a typical auto manual set-up, that is the main advantage as our skoots don't have lotsa room as the cars/trucks do for a tranny.

Unfortunately the way power is transmitted thru a selected gear in a constant mesh tranny is thru engaging "engagement dogs" (male protrusions on the sides of the gears) to the neighboring associated gear's dogs, or in some cases "female" slots. Lotsa torque is applied to relatively small contact surfaces, and as these surfaces wear they have reduced ability to hold together.

So when that wear becomes great enuff then under whatever level of acceleration needed to overwhelm that gear set's ability to remain engaged, the sliding gear of that gear set will get pushed out of engagement. But it is being held in place by the shift fork which is in it's position dictated by the groove it follows in the shift drum. Neither of these want to move so the shift fork acts as a spring, bending away with the gear then pushing the gear back into engagement.

Second gear is the most common gear to fail on most skoots.

I would HOPE a dealer would have someone good enuff to tackle this repair as it's pretty involved, and unfortunately expensive.

RACNRAY
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Old 06-20-2014, 12:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawboysix View Post
But only in 2nd gear?

That's right at 3000 rpm.

1st gear 24 mph
2nd gear 37 mph
3rd gear 50 mph. at 3000 rpm on the v2k. Try 1st,2nd and 3rd gears at these speeds with the same roll on throttle acceleration as you would to try and duplicate the problem that occurs in 2nd gear, in 1st and 3rd also.

Find out if it does it when the engine is cold also or only once it's warmed up. It doesn't sound like an ignition misfire if it's only happening in second gear and only at the certain speed. Possibly a problem with the ECU or maybe the fuel controller if he has one. I'm not talking from experience now so bare with me. I'm reading into ideas from another thread / another forum. Says to disconnect the aftermarket fuel controller, if he has one, and see if the problem goes away or changes. You could try this for starters.
I was thinking what you are thinking. I have run 1st gear all the way to red line and 3rd gear from as low as you can go without stalling to red line. Neither produces the issue. I covered the speed and RPM in other gears and can't get it to recreate. The skip happens at 1st start or run for 8 hours. There is no time it doesn't happen, if I get on the throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RACNRAY View Post
Classic symptoms of second gear jumping out then back into engagement. Depending on the condition of second gear and it's related shift components it can handle only so much torque. Whatever that point is when it is exceeded one of the gears slides out of engagement then back in. This is felt only when enuff torque(acceleration) surpasses second gear's ability to remain engaged, and is felt as a jerk. Ridden hard enuff second gear will go thru it's disengagement/re-engagement cycle repeatedly.

To minimize wear on the components I recommend NOT ridin the skoot in any manner which causes this to happen. Damage has already happened, further occurrences will only make it worse.

Typical repairs will be replacing both of the gears involved with second gear. I highly recommend undercutting the new gears to minimize this happening again. IF the original gears are not worn too bad, I have been able to undercut them which repairs the damage and establishes that undercut surface. Also the shift fork will have some damage and the shift drum slot for the second gear shift fork must be inspected for damage/wear.

RACNRAY
This was exactly what I didn't want to hear. Thank you for the help though, now I know what I need to start looking at. Can you describe undercutting and what it does and why? I would like to fix the issue and then make sure it doesn't happen again.

I, too, would like to know what causes this. Is it just too much power for the part Ma Kaw used? Until I get it fixed, I will just take it easy in 2nd gear. Since I am going to put Euro Gears in the bike, I will do the repairs then.
 
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Old 06-20-2014, 01:21 PM   #12
RACNRAY   RACNRAY is offline
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Undercutting is a machining operation where I cut a different angle on the engagement dogs and in the engagement slots. This altered from stock angle helps to "lock" the gears into engagement.

As for the reasons of the failure, read the first sentence of my last post.

I have been undercutting gears since, oh bout 1984 or so. You can send the tranny to me for inspection so I can assess what is needed.

RACNRAY
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Old 06-20-2014, 01:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACNRAY View Post
Undercutting is a machining operation where I cut a different angle on the engagement dogs and in the engagement slots. This altered from stock angle helps to "lock" the gears into engagement.
Thanks!

Quote:
As for the reasons of the failure, read the first sentence of my last post.
I saw that after I posted... We were posting at the same time.

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I have been undercutting gears since, oh bout 1984 or so. You can send the tranny to me for inspection so I can assess what is needed.

RACNRAY
If I pull the trans, what kind of cost are we looking at for you to do the work? Is the trans a cassette that I can just remove? I called a shop, and the shift fork replacement labor cost is $2300 . I have a friend who is a Kaw certified tech, so we can probably tackle the work ourselves, but it would be straight replacement, no mods.
 
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Old 06-20-2014, 01:36 PM   #14
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another question I have for you - if I ride the bike, without the skipping (meaning I shift early and keep the throttle light), am I going to do anymore damage? If I can out off the repair until winter, I would prefer to do that, so I don't miss any riding time.
 
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Old 06-20-2014, 01:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Thanks!



I saw that after I posted... We were posting at the same time.



If I pull the trans, what kind of cost are we looking at for you to do the work? Is the trans a cassette that I can just remove? I called a shop, and the shift fork replacement labor cost is $2300 . I have a friend who is a Kaw certified tech, so we can probably tackle the work ourselves, but it would be straight replacement, no mods.
I would have to have the tranny here to inspect it before I can quote.

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another question I have for you - if I ride the bike, without the skipping (meaning I shift early and keep the throttle light), am I going to do anymore damage? If I can out off the repair until winter, I would prefer to do that, so I don't miss any riding time.
I suggest shifting thru second and right into 3rd, the V2 has well enuff torque. If you must use 2nd, don't allow it to skip. The damage is already done, but no need to make it worse.

RACNRAY
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