Oil Leak

[BigRiig]

Hi all,

I was recently working on my bike and noticed a substantial oil leak from the front spark plug tube. Long story short it was the cam chain cutting through the tube and causing a small pin hole. What is frustrating is that the bike has cam chain tensioner extenders which I was told would keep the cam chain from hitting the spark plug tubes. I haven't pulled the rear one to see if that is an issue but the front one is DEFINITELY hitting. I am ordering new tubes to keep the bike from leaking but don't want to keep replacing them causing more metal shavings to build up in the engine.

The bike is a 2005 Nomad 1600 with 64K miles on it. I don't ride hard but have cruised it on the highway at 80+mph just not all the time. Most of my riding is around town and backroads. I did not install the tensioners myself but I do know they are on there for sure.

Any thought or ideas???

Thanks!

[mick56]

It could be, that the tensioner was not set correctly. Or, the chain could be worn out. I fitted extenders at about 35,000m. Maybe paranoia made me do it too soon. By about 65,000m, the chains were totally worn out. Have a read of this.
https://gadgetsfixitpage.com/article...oner-extenders

[BigRiig]

I will check the tensioners but pretty sure they are working correctly. If I understand you correctly, the chains need to be changed at or around 65k? Seems like a huge design flaw and I haven't heard of others having to do that. What did they charge to replace the chains?

[mick56]

Originally Posted by BigRiig

I will check the tensioners but pretty sure they are working correctly. If I understand you correctly, the chains need to be changed at or around 65k? Seems like a huge design flaw and I haven't heard of others having to do that. What did they charge to replace the chains?

There is a difference of opinion, regards the cam chains life. Americans, mostly just cruise around at steady speeds. . British, and i guess, most other people, have bends in their roads, so ride the bikes differently. The more you open the throttle, the more stress it gets. I have heard of blokes getting 150,000 miles out of them, once the extenders are fitted.,. BULLSHIT. As i said before mate. If your chain is hitting the tube, it's worn, but not nessararily fucked. There is a way to fit new chains, by just taking the cam covers off. But the engine has to come out..If you want to do that, i would be happy to walk you through it. Just out of interest. How far out are the extenders. And are they both the same ?

[BigRiig]

I need to check how far extended they are. I haven't pulled the rear cylinder tube to see how damaged it is. I commuted on this bike for a few years but also ride it on the backroads. I don't usually ride hard but will keep up with highway speeds when on the freeway (which is rarely these days).

On the subject of new chains, everything I have read says you have to pull the motor and have a special tool. I have built engines before but never a motorcycle engine and don't know that I want to tackle that myself. I was also thinking about having a big bore and cam kit installed if I was to go through a shop.

One other question: are there upgraded timing chains to install that are pre-stretched and last longer? I have never heard of a motor where timing chains wear out at 65K. Seems like there should be a long term fix especially because I don't want to ever have the engine out again after I do this repair.

[degreaser]

even my 2011 Mazda van has 223,000 km and to my knowledge the belt or timing chain has never been touched on it, I think Kawasaki is putting in poor quality timing chains

[andyvh1959]

The cam chain being "poor quality" is not the issue. Certainly, perhaps a more expensive can chain could be applied, but it is more the space/size available and the engine characteristics than the chain quality itself.

Big differences can chain belt or chain between a car engine and a motorcycle engine. Car engines spin at rpms in the 1500 to 4000 range. Motorcycle engines are routinely spun at higher rpm than a car engine. Car cam chains can be much larger because weight and physical size are not issues. The cam sprockets in a car engine can be much larger in diameter which puts less load on the chain links and sprocket teeth. Motorcycle engines, even similar in CC size are much more compact and higher performance per CC than a car engine. Typically the motorcycle cam chain is much smaller in size, the sprockets are much smaller.

The cam chain in my 2010 Ford Fusion 3.0L V6 is much larger, double row, heavier than the cam chain in my Vulcan. In the Ford engine it runs in constant oil bath, and my Fusion now has 220,000 miles on it, with the stock cam chain and hydraulic tensioner.

[BigRiig]

Originally Posted by andyvh1959

The cam chain being "poor quality" is not the issue. Certainly, perhaps a more expensive can chain could be applied, but it is more the space/size available and the engine characteristics than the chain quality itself.

Big differences can chain belt or chain between a car engine and a motorcycle engine. Car engines spin at rpms in the 1500 to 4000 range. Motorcycle engines are routinely spun at higher rpm than a car engine. Car cam chains can be much larger because weight and physical size are not issues. The cam sprockets in a car engine can be much larger in diameter which puts less load on the chain links and sprocket teeth. Motorcycle engines, even similar in CC size are much more compact and higher performance per CC than a car engine. Typically the motorcycle cam chain is much smaller in size, the sprockets are much smaller.

The cam chain in my 2010 Ford Fusion 3.0L V6 is much larger, double row, heavier than the cam chain in my Vulcan. In the Ford engine it runs in constant oil bath, and my Fusion now has 220,000 miles on it, with the stock cam chain and hydraulic tensioner.

I totally get what you're saying. However there has to be a better solution. Our bikes are not the only ones using cam chains but they seem to be the only ones that go out at 60K or even sooner. I also know that you can install double roller chains in racing applications that hold up way better to high RPMs and more abusive driving. Also These bikes do run higher RPMs but that should be taken into account when designing the engines.

I know people with late 90s GSXRs with high mileage who have never had to replace timing chains. Just seems like someone should make a chain that is more resilient.

[degreaser]

don't pull that motor out, not yet anyways, maybe it's not necessary, I mean, here's my opinion on this, which isn't worth much I know but here it is, your '05 1600 is at 65K miles, ok good job, you do way more than i do on my 800 so congrats, and your cam chain has stretched somewhat to rub against the plug tubes and made a hole, my old '04 1500 classic did that but I installed extenders before the chain rubbed all the way thru the tube to make a hole, but it is my opinion that the Kawasaki motor design distance in inches between that moving cam chain and those plug tubes is very slim, I could guess how much distance it's not much, so here's my point, instead of pulling the motor just push that chain further away with more extension on your extenders, don't they make extenders with a longer rod? all you need is to push that chain in a very slight distance to clear the tubes, the extenders push on the chain guide not the actual chain itself, that chain is only going to stretch so far then it's done stretching, that's my uninformed opinion, pulling the motor is one hell of a big job, try to push that chain guide in some more before pulling that motor out, all you probably need to do is push that chain guide in another 1/8th inch or so

[mick56]

"the extenders push on the chain guide not the actual chain itself, that chain is only going to stretch so far then it's done stretching, that's my uninformed opinion",



My chain was totally worn out, and about to snap at 65,000. I reckon i replaced it just in time. The teeth on the cam cogs, are really small. And a worn chain, would skip over them real easy. I replace it with a German brand, which i forget the name of. I connected it to the old one, and turned the engine over by hand, then joined it with a soft link. Much easier than stripping the whole engine.

[BigRiig]

Originally Posted by mick56

"the extenders push on the chain guide not the actual chain itself, that chain is only going to stretch so far then it's done stretching, that's my uninformed opinion",



My chain was totally worn out, and about to snap at 65,000. I reckon i replaced it just in time. The teeth on the cam cogs, are really small. And a worn chain, would skip over them real easy. I replace it with a German brand, which i forget the name of. I connected it to the old one, and turned the engine over by hand, then joined it with a soft link. Much easier than stripping the whole engine.

If you know the brand that would be greatly appreciated. Also how has the new chain done compared to the OEM?

[mick56]

Originally Posted by BigRiig

If you know the brand that would be greatly appreciated. Also how has the new chain done compared to the OEM?

I sold the bike at about 88,000m, so have no idea how it was after that. I think it was an SKF chain though. And they are Swedish, not German. I did a fair bit of research, and they came out on top.

[BigRiig]

Originally Posted by degreaser

don't pull that motor out, not yet anyways, maybe it's not necessary, I mean, here's my opinion on this, which isn't worth much I know but here it is, your '05 1600 is at 65K miles, ok good job, you do way more than i do on my 800 so congrats, and your cam chain has stretched somewhat to rub against the plug tubes and made a hole, my old '04 1500 classic did that but I installed extenders before the chain rubbed all the way thru the tube to make a hole, but it is my opinion that the Kawasaki motor design distance in inches between that moving cam chain and those plug tubes is very slim, I could guess how much distance it's not much, so here's my point, instead of pulling the motor just push that chain further away with more extension on your extenders, don't they make extenders with a longer rod? all you need is to push that chain in a very slight distance to clear the tubes, the extenders push on the chain guide not the actual chain itself, that chain is only going to stretch so far then it's done stretching, that's my uninformed opinion, pulling the motor is one hell of a big job, try to push that chain guide in some more before pulling that motor out, all you probably need to do is push that chain guide in another 1/8th inch or so

As far as I know, there are no other extenders besides the ones that I have on. What is a bit worrysome is that the rear cylinder has barely any wear on the spark plug tube and the front is worn almost clean through. I can check the adjustment on the tensioners but the front one is a bear to get to. I have heard guys who have catastrophic engine failure at 70K miles and others who have ridden well into the 100K mark with no issues. I guess I am just wondering if I should replace them just for peace of mind and what brand is best to keep this from being an issue moving forward.

[degreaser]

ok, what you said here is the key to all this, you said
(I am just wondering if I should replace them just for peace of mind)

I think that's where you're headed, just for peace of mind
then new chains here we go,
i've never pulled a motor before or changed cam chains, but I'll offer support where i can

[BigRiig]

Originally Posted by degreaser

ok, what you said here is the key to all this, you said
(I am just wondering if I should replace them just for peace of mind)

I think that's where you're headed, just for peace of mind
then new chains here we go,
i've never pulled a motor before or changed cam chains, but I'll offer support where i can

Thanks for the support! I guess I am leaning towards replacing them but will have a shop do it as I would have some other work done while they have it apart. My dad has a 91 Harley with 97K miles on it and not a single problem. I just feel like a bike like mine shouldn't need such a big repair after only 65K.

I also want to know what the best replacement chain is to ensure I am not doing this again...EVER! I plan to keep the bike indefinitely so I want everything to be tip top mechanically.