Power Commander V issues...

[Fried Chicken Blowout]

I've got a Vaquero with the Freedom 2-1 Combat installed and the Chuckster Intake kit with the stock dog bowl cover. Bike has always had a weird hesitation at 1700-2000 RPM under light throttle - 20% and below, maybe as much as 40% and below. I tried to fix it with the Dobeck TFI and that didn't really work, it was always there and worse once the bike gets hot. So then I installed a Power Commander V with ignition control, dropped in the PCV map for the V&H 2-1 system and rode it directly to a local Kawi dealer for dyno tuning thinking I'd be golden, wrong...

The bike comes back and the only changes to the map are to the 80% and 100% throttle position and that's it. They didn't change the map at any of the lower throttle positions. Well I give it a try and once the bike is hot, that 1700-2000 RPM range is NOT tolerable at all. The bike will buck and kick when passing through that RPM range. It's okay when the air temp is low and the bike is below half way on the gauge.

So of course I call the tech and get a song and dance about it just being how that cam is setup and whatever, but he agrees to run the bike again. I'm scheduled for a couple weeks from now and wanted some input from guys with a PCV and this or similar setup. I remember RacnRay saying that there's a spot in the low RPM range on these engines that needs to be WAY leaned out because of some sort of airflow change with the aftermarket intakes. Can someone elaborate on this and/or email me copies of their maps so I can look at what has been done to make these bikes run smooth at the 1700-2000 RPM range and light throttle?

And what in the world is the factory ECM doing when the bike gets hot. The bike basically runs like shit and is there a way to fix that?

Email goes to seznutn@gmail if you can send me a map from a bike that runs great.

Thanks

[Ken Vega]

You can try bumping up the timing above idle in the 2% and 5% column of the ignition table. I have no hesitation at all in any gear at any speed. It also sounds like your tuner only tuned for balls out wide open throttle, top end and not for all the RPM ranges.

Whe. The bike gets hot at the 3/4 mark on the temp guage, the ECU retards timing to avoid knock. This is why the bike runs like a dog off the line in stop an go. I am about to do the fan switch override mod to turn the fan on manually in traffic so the power loss does not occur. RacnRay has the instructions posted in this forum on how to do the mod.

I will send you a dyno tuned map but it is for my setup. I think you need a new tuner.

[Fried Chicken Blowout]

Ken,

Thanks for the prompt response. I actually suspected I could improve things with timing changes but in messing with the adjustments it never changed anything in the way the bike ran. So I started looking at what was going on there. Turns out after an hour on the phone with Dyno Jet, I had a PCV that had an ignition unit that wasn't actually doing anything. I mailed it back last Saturday and I'm waiting for the unit to return. But I learned a fascinating thing that you can hook up your computer to the bike and the Dyno Jet staff can log into your computer and mess with everything while the bike is running to troubleshoot stuff.

And yes I'm not too happy with the shop. They seem to do mostly dirt bikes as far as sales go but they are a Kawi dealer with a dyno, so I thought I would get better results than going to a Harley centered place. Not so much at this point. But I'm hoping the second trip in that I get a full service tune rather than just WOT. But it does run really good with heavy throttle.

[RACNRAY]

I have been a DynoJet Dyno owner/operator since 1993, that dyno has more miles on it than Garry's Voyager!!! LOL

It always is a disappointment to learn of these so called "dyno shops" performing bullshit tuning. They tuned the two most un-important throttle position areas for real world riding, the 80 and 100% areas. Real good thing you are knowledgeable to have been able to compare the before and after maps and catch their deception.

IF you take it back to them, have a lengthy "talk" with the dyno operator, ask him WHY THE F#&K did he tune those areas on a street going cruiser for Gods sake, and let him know that he is obligated to tune at every single throttle position if the tuning is deemed to be done correctly.

I also HIGHLY RECOMMEND installing the Thunder Throttle body gasket BEFORE any further attempt in tuning is performed. Intake vacuum leaks between the throttle body and intake manifold are well documented and leaks can wreak havoc.

Fell free to call me for more info, I can talk MUCH faster than it takes to type this stuff!!!

954-4455-9665

RACNRAY

[Fried Chicken Blowout]

Ray thanks for the post. I had already installed the gasket that you recommend so that was good to go. I'll likely give you a call sometime before I head back into the shop for another tune. Just got the PCV back from Dyno Jet and reinstalled it. Will go for a ride today and mess with the timing some to see what happens.

[99xcsp]

Originally Posted by Fried Chicken Blowout

I've got a Vaquero with the Freedom 2-1 Combat installed and the Chuckster Intake kit with the stock dog bowl cover. Bike has always had a weird hesitation at 1700-2000 RPM under light throttle - 20% and below, maybe as much as 40% and below. I tried to fix it with the Dobeck TFI and that didn't really work, it was always there and worse once the bike gets hot. So then I installed a Power Commander V with ignition control, dropped in the PCV map for the V&H 2-1 system and rode it directly to a local Kawi dealer for dyno tuning thinking I'd be golden, wrong...

The bike comes back and the only changes to the map are to the 80% and 100% throttle position and that's it. They didn't change the map at any of the lower throttle positions. Well I give it a try and once the bike is hot, that 1700-2000 RPM range is NOT tolerable at all. The bike will buck and kick when passing through that RPM range. It's okay when the air temp is low and the bike is below half way on the gauge.

So of course I call the tech and get a song and dance about it just being how that cam is setup and whatever, but he agrees to run the bike again. I'm scheduled for a couple weeks from now and wanted some input from guys with a PCV and this or similar setup. I remember RacnRay saying that there's a spot in the low RPM range on these engines that needs to be WAY leaned out because of some sort of airflow change with the aftermarket intakes. Can someone elaborate on this and/or email me copies of their maps so I can look at what has been done to make these bikes run smooth at the 1700-2000 RPM range and light throttle?

And what in the world is the factory ECM doing when the bike gets hot. The bike basically runs like shit and is there a way to fix that?

Email goes to seznutn@gmail if you can send me a map from a bike that runs great.

Thanks

I had a similar problem with my 2013 Voyager with a 2 into 1 Combat pipe, my bike was tuned by a trusted local tuner, he even tuned each cylinder separately (frt map/rear map) from low % range to top % and guess what? the bike still ran poorly down low in the RPM although ran great mid range/top, next I called Freedom and ordered a quiet baffle thinking a more restrictive exhaust would help with the low end tune, it helped a little but not to my satisfaction. With being so frustrated I took off the Freedom 2 into 1 Pipe and installed my stock header with set of new Vance & Hines Slip on's and POOF the bike runs great everywhere through the RPM. I truly believe the problem is the pipe, it looks and sounds good but wasn't engineered truly for cruiser bike with performance in mind unless your running wide open throttle down down a drag strip? Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by 99xcsp

I had a similar problem with my 2013 Voyager with a 2 into 1 Combat pipe, my bike was tuned by a trusted local tuner, he even tuned each cylinder separately (frt map/rear map) from low % range to top % and guess what? the bike still ran poorly down low in the RPM although ran great mid range/top, next I called Freedom and ordered a quiet baffle thinking a more restrictive exhaust would help with the low end tune, it helped a little but not to my satisfaction. With being so frustrated I took off the Freedom 2 into 1 Pipe and installed my stock header with set of new Vance & Hines Slip on's and POOF the bike runs great everywhere through the RPM. I truly believe the problem is the pipe, it looks and sounds good but wasn't engineered truly for cruiser bike with performance in mind unless your running wide open throttle down down a drag strip? Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!

Just my two cents worth, but you might check out what is called "fuel cut". My 2011 Vaquero would do this so hard you would get a lesson in whiplash. Check out http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/st1300.htm My skoot did this till the throttle body was changed out. The factory rep and myself took the old one apart. There was no visible defects in the mechanical gearing in the working parts. I suspect the problem is in the electronics that is sealed in the side of the body assembly. The new part made the problem go away by about 90% or so . It is still there but I can live with it. All of the engine is stock. I am waiting to install PCv to clear up the rest.

[Gypsy Dragon]

Originally Posted by 99xcsp

I had a similar problem with my 2013 Voyager with a 2 into 1 Combat pipe, my bike was tuned by a trusted local tuner, he even tuned each cylinder separately (frt map/rear map) from low % range to top % and guess what? the bike still ran poorly down low in the RPM although ran great mid range/top, next I called Freedom and ordered a quiet baffle thinking a more restrictive exhaust would help with the low end tune, it helped a little but not to my satisfaction. With being so frustrated I took off the Freedom 2 into 1 Pipe and installed my stock header with set of new Vance & Hines Slip on's and POOF the bike runs great everywhere through the RPM. I truly believe the problem is the pipe, it looks and sounds good but wasn't engineered truly for cruiser bike with performance in mind unless your running wide open throttle down down a drag strip? Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!

Although there can be inconsistencies in the manufacturing process, I can attest that the FP 2-1 design is not the culprit. I have a 2012 Vaquero with the very first big bore and cam kit, that has been ported and polished, and has had a couple of the best tuners in the country tweak it, and other than once it gets hot and the ECU pulls the timing, it runs GREAT. Before the motor work was done, and while I had the pipe on, I used the map for the V&H 2-1 and did some butt tuning with it, and still never had an issue.

That hesitation between 1700-2000 under light throttle is a symptom of the flaw in the ECU mapping. One if the easiest ways to fight it, is to buy or make a throttle mod, which essentially turns the throttle tube in to a quick turn throttle. There are a couple of people on this forum (Racnray and Dshelly) that make and sell these for very reasonable prices. I made my own out of PVC. It was a bit of a PIA, but some patience got it done for about $1.25.