Trail braking vs conventional corners

[Flapjack]

What are your thoughts on trail braking being suggested for the normal rider vs on the track only.

MSF courses teach the conventional way: slow, look, press, roll.

I saw recently, it is being suggested to use the trail brake method.

[smokier]

Greetings,

I am not familiar with the term "TRAIL BRAKING", please describe in detail the process/technique.

[OldSchool]

First off trail braking is used in Dirt biking, Motocross, Adventure off road riding.
Not so much in just "track" riding. It is used as a slow hairpin turn maneuver for manipulating man and machine around very tight almost reversed corners in off road conditions and normally does not apply to street machines. However like many things the technique or parts of it anyway can be applied to street riding. Personally I feel it is total overkill for street riding. We use a watered down version for making u turns on our big bikes. Any further than that is unnecessary. Sounds more like an instructor was trying to impress a group of students on his knowledge more than teaching practical application.

[OldSchool]

Okay watched a few you tubes on what they are now calling "trail braking" and how it is being applied to street use. Primary it is used so you can go into corners "faster". One guy "who calls himself an expert" even shows how you can exit off the highway at a much faster rate so you don't get rear ended and talks about how much safer it is. Wow. Anyway this is what trail braking is and what it was originally used for.

[smokier]

Greetings,
OK, thank you for the explanation and video link.
I have used that technique when performing really tight turns at slow speed. U-TURNs on a two lane when it suddenly turned to gravel, for example. Didn't know what it was called, so learned something!
As to the original post, not sure how one might apply it practically to typical road riding of an 800 pound v-twin?

Ride safe,
Smokier

[Chuck A.]

Voyager already has the f&r brakes tied together. I'll order the knobbies today so I can get you some input in a few weeks.

[Scoot13]

I read a book called "cornering confidence" cant remember the author but its about body position, bike position and trail braking. It was a good read and gave me some tips on cornering and keeping the tire contact patch on the road and not having to lean the bike over so much and compressing the front shock so your front tire is contacting the ground more. There is alot more to the book. I think its good info. Jmo

[Flapjack]

Originally Posted by OldSchool

First off trail braking is used in Dirt biking, Motocross, Adventure off road riding.
Not so much in just "track" riding. It is used as a slow hairpin turn maneuver for manipulating man and machine around very tight almost reversed corners in off road conditions and normally does not apply to street machines. However like many things the technique or parts of it anyway can be applied to street riding. Personally I feel it is total overkill for street riding. We use a watered down version for making u turns on our big bikes. Any further than that is unnecessary. Sounds more like an instructor was trying to impress a group of students on his knowledge more than teaching practical application.

I forgot about this thread.

I had just come across a few YouTube videos that was talking about it. I like to see other people's thoughts on topics, especially when I dont know much about it.

Thanks for the info and I'm sure I'll be reading more on it

[Old Bear]

Originally Posted by Chuck A.

Voyager already has the f&r brakes tied together. I'll order the knobbies today so I can get you some input in a few weeks.

I've been waiting for some pictures of the Voyager with those knobbies installed, where they at? Oh, don't forget the video!

[tonik]

Originally Posted by Flapjack

What are your thoughts on trail braking being suggested for the normal rider vs on the track only.

MSF courses teach the conventional way: slow, look, press, roll.

I saw recently, it is being suggested to use the trail brake method.

I do both street and track.

Trail braking is designed to accomplish two things. One, load the front tire before you tip it over and turn. Two let you get deeper into the corner faster, then snap the bike over and increase length of the exit straight so you can accelerate sooner (more on that later). On the track for the most part you either want to be accelerating or braking. Neutral throttle is lost time. Again, for the most part.

On the street, if you 'need' to be trail braking you are going too fast. If you want to trail brake to increase your speed around a corner without getting carried away and to make it safer at a higher speed than the traditional MSF way, then go for it. Done correctly and not too fast it is just as safe.

I am not saying the MSF way is unsafe, it is wonderful if you do it their way. I am saying you can't do it their way if you want to go faster around a corner.

So the line through the corner changes when you do this. You stay outside longer and you are braking as you lean over a little...easing off the brakes (trailing off thus the name trail braking) you are looking through the corner for the exit straight. As soon as you see a straight line out of the corner you release the rest of the brakes as you snap the bike over....that points it down the straight and you can roll on. If you do this from the outside of the corner you will see the exit straight just past the apex of the corner.

If you do a traditional MSF corner you are going to be on the inside of the corner when you hit the apex and you will be pointed towards the outside of the corner...you still have to go a long way around the corner before you can accelerate hard.

Why to trail brake:








Why preloading your front tire is good (which you accomplish if you are trail braking) :

[andyvh1959]

A few comments from a rider/teacher, 28 years as a MSF instructor, six years as an advanced skills instructor, Street Skills rider courses on the small track at Road America:

Foremost, ANY comments about techniques taught in the commonly available MSF rider courses is only a BEGINNER rider course technique. The MSF BRC is structured to teach very basic techniques to a very broad scope of riders, especially for brand new riders with no concepts of motorcycle control. And all done within only ten hours of riding on a flat level parking lot. The MSF BRC is intended to get enough basic riding skills to survive the first six months of riding, from which the real learning begins.

Trail braking is not just using the rear brake or applying just the rear brake into a corner. Trail braking is not just intended for slow speed tight maneuvers. In fact, slow speed tight maneuvers is NOT trail braking at all. Trail braking is a method to apply braking into and almost to the apex of the turn, in a way to minimize weight load changes (front to rear) on the chassis. On some bikes trail braking (both front and rear brake) causes the entire bike to squat down slightly and evenly, which shortens the wheelbase slightly while maintaining fork angle/trail, and can cause the bike to turn in more quickly. In fact trail braking both front and rear brakes is primarily a chassis stability technique. What can't be stressed enough, like Nick Ienatsch says over and over, is STEADY loading, especially at the front tire. Anything that is done to create and apply steady, linear, progressive loading at the front tire is what builds cornering confidence, and gives consistent cornering results. Steady consistent actions of throttle and brakes effectively "presses" the tire contact patches into the surface in turns. That, and current technology tires actually tend to increase tire contact patch size as the tires are leaned into a turn even up to significant lean angles.

Trail braking is applying both front and rear brakes, with a steady throttle applied, to get the entire chassis to squat down evenly into a turn to the apex point, at which the brakes are evenly let off while the throttle is rolled on. Again, mostly done to maintain consistent chassis geometry into and through the turn. And yes, it is a complicated advanced technique, probably not needed for most general riding. However, riding twisty mountain roads is a non-track environment to use effective trail braking.

The MSF BRC technique is just that, a Beginner Rider Course technique. It is not the only way to do braking for cornering/leaning. But I can attest that after 28 years of teaching MSF classes it is by FAR the easiest most effective way to teach set up for cornering/leaning. And for a LOT of riders I've experienced in those 28 years is that many riders can just learn the MSF technique within the timeframe given for the BRC. To effectively teach trail braking, especially to brand new riders, requires FAR more time than allowed for the 16 hour BRC.

The MSF ARC, Advanced Rider Course, does teach some aspects of trail braking, as much as can be applied safely on a parking lot range with mostly hesitant riders on their own bikes. To really learn trail braking take the Lee Parks Total Control rider course.

Dragging the rear brake only, and NO front brake at all, during slow speed tight maneuvers and U-turns IS a very effective method. Watch the tight maneuver youtube videos of officers, or Ride Like a Pro, and the riders drag the rear brake, use the clutch/friction zone and throttle, and strong visual control. But they are not using trail braking.