Timing Nightmare

[vvbluerider]

Originally Posted by gv550

This morning I found a 1700 Nomad for sale, bought it and have it in my garage.
I removed the fuel tank, the top rad hose, unbolted the coils and laid them over the bracket, pulled the spark plug, moved the air switch valve back, removed the plastichrome covers...... and lifted the front valve cover off. I did not loosen or remove any motor mounts. 50 minutes of easy work and I can see the timing marks on the front cam.... piece of cake.
I have pictures but too big to load here, give me your email and I'll send them to you.

I believe you're right on being able to access the front timing chain without removing the engine. Been busy working on another bike but plan to get going on this timing work soon. I'll keep you posted as to how it ends up.

Funny how a dealer can not even answer a simple question like this. Does not give me any confidence in the Kawasaki dealer network.

[vvbluerider]

I believe Kawasaki has issued technical service bulletins on how to do the timing procedure but they are not releasing that information to the average Joe. Harley does this all the time, insider info which forces the public to bow down to their service departments. It is a win-lose business strategy that will cause them to see many customers walk away. By the the time they figure this out everyone will be riding other brands.

[vvbluerider]

Engine will have to get pulled. Timing marks are off by about 1 tooth each, probably because the hydraulic tensioners were not actively pressurized while doing this timing adjustment. I had a suspicion something like that might happen.

Kawi manual doesn't say a word about this.

Very frustrating discovery.

[gv550]

Having just returned from a test ride after replacing the shaft and pulley in my new-to-me 1700 Nomad, I can certainly understand how frustrating it would be to have to pull the engine again.
But your comment about the cam chain tensioners not pressurized while setting the timing is just wrong. The tensioners are not installed until after the cam timing has been set. I suspect (but don’t know) that you were or are rotating the engine in the wrong direction, that is more likely to be the cause of your timing error, and your post #4 seems to indicate some confusion about this.
The engine must be rotated backwards (compared to the wheels), which Kawasaki calls clockwise when looking at the output shaft (left side of the bike)
The cylinders are numbered 1 for the front and 2 for the rear.
The firing order is 2-1.
All of this is in the manual, not all in the same place, none of it in bold print, but it’s all there.
There have been single crank pin v-twin engines in motorcycles for 100+years, and they are all timed the same, the second cylinder (in this case #1) fires 360 degrees minus the v angle after the first cylinder. Kawasaki adds a bit of confusion by telling us to time from the second cylinder (#1) plus 360 degrees plus the v angle, but again, this is reasonably clear in the manual. Not in bold print but it is in the section about cam timing.

[vvbluerider]

There is absolutely no way you can change the rear timing on a Voyager if the motor is in the bike. There is also no way to 'lower' the engine in this bike to access the rear cylinder cam without going thru the motor removal procedure. A long tedious road.

I have discovered that the timing marks I had meticulously lined up, according to the instructions provided in the Kawasaki service manual shifted positions after this motor started running.

My best guess is the hydraulic tensioners were not pressurized with oil, causing the timing marks to shift. If this is what happened, than the service manual can not be trusted, or the engineers completely overlooked this situation, leading technicians and mechanics down a road of extreme frustration.

Does anybody know about this or am I the only person caught in this snare?

[gv550]

Absolutely not possible for the timing to change after the engine is running.
When removed, the cam chain tensioners need to be compressed by lifting the ratchet pawl and inserting a pin to lock the rod in the fully retracted position. After setting the cam timing, install the tensioner and remove the lock pin so the rod can extend under spring force to contact the guide and hold the chain tight. The rod will lock in the extended position with the ratchet pawl. At this point you can rotate the engine all you want, with or without oil pressure, and the chain can not jump a tooth.
In post #1 you said you didn't rotate the crank the required 360 degrees to set the timing on the rear cylinder. Based on that, I said you could remove the front valve cover and alternator rotor to reset the front cam timing an additional 308 degrees, no need to remove the rear valve cover as indeed, can't be done with the engine in the frame.
Now you say the timing marks are off by one tooth each...... which is it, 360 degrees or one tooth? If you are off by one tooth on the rear cylinder then you need to remove the engine.
Harley is the only remaining manufacturer to continue using modular drive train, every other bike has unit construction since what.... 1960? All Harleys more recent designs, Sportster (1957), Vrod, 500 &750 bikes, 975 & 1250 RevMax are unit construction because it is proven to be the best engineering. Makes it a bugger to access the transmission but it's normal motorcycle design. Don't blame Kawasaki for adopting existing accepted technology.
This spline failure on VN1700s is a raw deal, happened to me in 2011 and again last week. Ongoing issue for 14 years, dealers and owners have been repairing them, and lots of forum discussion. Regular cleaning, relubing and retorquing the nut with a new washer every second tire change is the only way to prevent it.
It's not unique to Kawasaki, my buddy's Road Star 1900 did the same, and it's been happening on chain drive bikes for decades.

[vvbluerider]

Garry, I appreciate your comments and have a very bizarre situation going on. I have always rotated the crank clockwise, so that issue is cleared up. I was hoping what you said about resetting the front cam with an additional rotation of 308 degrees off the rear timing mark was my ticket out of this. No such luck.

I pulled off the alternator cover and found the rear timing mark was not lining up with the alternator rotor timing marks. I initially set all timing (front and rear) off the balancer chain sprocket marks. Could the alternator rotor marks line up differently from the balancer sprocket marks? Highly doubtful. Both the rear and front timing marks shifted (looks like about 1 tooth), when viewed off the rotor marks.


Do you know if you can readjust the timing marks without removal of the tensioner?

Why do I ask? When a tensioner is removed and the rod is pushed back in order to se ure it with a retainer pin, it clearly states that caution is required because oil will dash out. Ok, oil dashes out so when you install the tensioner no oil is dashing in until the oil pump gets cranking....right?

If you agree with that statement, then logically the tensioner when reinstalled is not to full tension due to lack of oil pressure. Right?

After the engine runs, tension kicks in and the marks can shift? It is the only explanation I can comprehend at this point.

You sound like a solid mechanic who has been down this road before. Having 2 output shaft failures seems like no big deal to you? I bought a Kawasaki because I was tired of working on the Harley. The procedure you recommend is not called out in any service manual. The dissimilar composition of the metals between the pulley and output shaft are where I believe this problem resides. Kawasaki has not fixed this problem nor have they issued a maintenance procedure like you call out.

Potential buyers would run far and fast if they knew what they were getting into. As for the integrated engine / transmission design, super great for the manufacturer to lower component costs and maximize profits. Terrible for the average Joe taking in his bike for the repair.

[gv550]

I did this shaft replacement repair last week on my Nomad, and paid particular attention to the timing since I was offering advice about it. This is the 4th time I've done this job. I have always set the cam timing from the balancer sprocket and this time I also tried to verify the timing after installing the alternator rotor and noticed the cam marks wouldn't align when I set the crank from the rotor marks, off about one tooth just as you say. I've never noticed this before (never looked), but since the manual says to use the balancer sprocket that's what I do. I have no explanation other than the distance the rotor mark is from the crankcase pointer leaves a lot of variation depending on what angle you look at it from.
The tensioners definitely need to be removed to reset the timing.
The tensioner is spring loaded and additional force is applied by engine oil pressure, I believe the oil pressure keeps tension on the chain when the rod is between two pawl ratchet teeth. You may notice the engine rattles a bit when first started and especially after doing an oil change, until engine oil pressure builds and applies more force to the guide to minimize that rattle. But the pawl still holds the rod so it can't retract enough to allow the chain to jump a tooth, (or the timing would jump every cold start-up).
The idea of resetting the front cam by rotating the crank 308 degrees from the R mark was yours, in post 1. After thinking about it I believe it is possible and I rolled my engine over several times to try confirm it, but you won't find anything about it in the manual because they want us to time R after setting F. It should work, but really.... after all this grief why not just pull the engine, remove both valve covers and the rotor and do the job properly. And if you do pull the engine, DO NOT reuse the tab washer!
The pulley mounting procedure that I recommend is directly from the service manual, but it's not in the maintenance schedule and definitely should be.
People need to exercise due diligence before buying anything, talk to owners, read forums, check for bulletins and recalls, etc. When I looked at this Nomad for sale I said I needed to see the output spline before I would buy it....... the spline was worn but not yet stripped and I explained politely to the seller what was involved and we agreed on a different price.

[vvbluerider]

Your observation about the timing marks not lining up as viewed from the balancer sprocket and the alternator rotor at least assured me I am not losing my mind. This ridiculousness in the service manual is another disgrace to Japanese engineering.

Hate to have to go through this entire procedure again but it is the road I am stuck on at this moment.

For the US corporate folks to shut me down on technical assistance based on 'liability' issues is ludicrous, especially when they produce a video showing how to do the timing procedure on an ATV motor. Hypocrites!!!

These guys deserve a class action lawsuit served to them for their dishonest and hypocritical double speak, not to mention their engine drive train failure that wins the award for pathetic. Yes, those use once tabbed lock nuts for the motor mount studs are probably as worthless as their output drive shafts.

I truly appreciate your insights. Going to take a break from all this for a bit. I am not a happy Kawasaki owner as you may have noticed.

[vvbluerider]

This website deletes information that gets posted!!!