Victory and HD

[AlabamaNomadRider]

The problem with Harley as I see it, is that they refuse to change. They still want to do everything the old way. Harley's will always sell as people want to say I own a Harley.

Found it interesting how many seals, O Rings the Harley has. Think he said something about 63. Anyone have any idea how many we have?

[ponch]

Originally Posted by glwilson

Talking "tech-talk" with just about any brand-dealer is likely to result in a "Duh" response. At least that has been my experience -- even with car dealers, tool salespeople; and other products...

There will always be a few "tech-points" salespeople will know from their sales script; but most of them are limited in deep-knowledge.

Occasionally you'll find a few that know their stuff though, and those are the ones that are most interesting to talk to.

One has to always remember though, that any salesperson has an agenda to sell you what they offer and to highlight the "better-points" of their product/service... so it would be best to gain a broad knowledge of the pro's-n-con's of anything one is looking for.

I'll bet there would be plenty of "con's" on just about every bike. I have yet to find the perfectly engineered product... despite those that tout they have it. ;)

I am looking though... ;)

We pretty much agree. I would think though, with a more expensive product like the HD and the limited competition, that a salesman could do better.

I used to work in an Apple shop. Even though I was a tech, I had to take the Apple Product Profession exam. This tested knowledge of all Apple Products. I will say that Apple was big of "Feeling the customers pain". That said, I could give a better pros and cons than the dweebs in the apple store...Who they usually hire from Best Buy or Target. I am not a salesmen, as I just can't lie... or from Braveheart: Ego nunquam pronunciari mendacium! Sed ego sum homo indomitus.

[nomad561]

I think that was the worst way you can promote a product. If you need to stand on your own accolades not trash another company to make yours look better.
With that said, HDs extensive maintenance requirements are the biggest deterent for me buying one. If they had such bad motors in them,then the only people who wouldn't be complaining are the ones that buy HDs for a conversation piece at backyard paries.

[dakota7557]

I owned a harley superglide for 5 years, put around 33,000 miles on it before I bought the Nomad...I bought it new and it was very dependable...With that said, it cost around $45 to change the oil, more if I changed the transmission fluid and the primary...(Also, the cam shoes were at the point where they needed replacing and I refuse to spend $750 to have a mechanic do it)...I can change the oil in my Nomad for around $15, and it is more conducive to my riding style. Quite a few people here in the Black Hills won't look twice at you when they realize you drive a Nomad, however, I ride for myself now, so I don't need the harley or Sturgis T-shirt to prove anything to anybody...With all that said, those were great videos that stated the differences between the Victory and harley...Knowledge is Power! Ride Safe, Jody

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by AlabamaNomadRider

The problem with Harley as I see it, is that they refuse to change. They still want to do everything the old way. Harley's will always sell as people want to say I own a Harley.

Found it interesting how many seals, O Rings the Harley has. Think he said something about 63. Anyone have any idea how many we have?

Don't know how many seals the Nomad has; but it is more than six I'll bet. My Nomad leaked oil... does that make it a piece of sh!t? My HD has never leaked anything. Does that make it better? Don't think so... just a different bike is all.

Gene, regarding your statement that HD hasn't made any changes to their bikes in years is clearly a wrong fact. There is a perception that HD hasn't changed anything for decades; when in reality they have.

In 2009, their tourers had over 450 changes made to them -- with some of the changes being major changes... enough that a pre-2009 bike cannot be compared to a bike post-2008 any longer. Some HD sites have debated having separate boards on HD's that are post-2008 since there are so many differences and issues that do not apply to to post-2008's.

While there are plenty of component designs that have not changed much; I believe much of the perception that HD hasn't made any changes is due to the fact that their bikes, on the surface, look much as they have for decades -- thus many just assume no changes have been made at all. That is simply not true.

Despite all of the criticism HD gets ad nauseam... they still out sell other bikes. In fact; since the economic recession of 2008, they handily out sold all other bike brands (including Honda for the first time).

Obviously; they have something many riders still want and are willing to pay for.

Now, since I believe in a supply-n-demand form of economics; that approach will demonstrate that a consistently inferior product, as perceived in value versus cost, will not survive in a free-enterprise system. There are no products/services that have lasted a long time in a free-enterprise economy with the absence of value versus cost -- period. So; while many can complain or mouth-off about HD -- or any other bike -- the fact remains, HD's out sell other bikes -- period. So, HD has done something correct repeatedly throughout their history.

And since they are the 800 lb. gorilla in the motorcycle industry; they will always remain the target of the competition. So be it. They certainly must love the attention. If you own a large mutual fund at present (especially a Large Value fund); you likely own a piece of HD. LOL! Think about that? (Someone may want to sell their fund if they don't like the idea of owning HD -- otherwise they remain in a vested position of interest in HD's success. )

Steve brought up several good and honest points about the Nomad in comparison to the Victory. It has its share of deficiencies (as noted by Steve and the numerous posts on this site and others), that do not shine the best-light on its engineering either.

BMW has its share of complaints as well by its owners (as I discovered by lurking on a few BMW sites). It appears that group is relentless in showing no mercy for anything BMW does wrong... obviously since they pay a big price for a product they expect to be flawless. HD forums show the same by some of its owners.

While Victory appears to make a great product, I would imagine they too have their faults -- yet undiscovered; or at least not by me on any site yet... but I am sure there are a few things their owners are not happy about. We'll see soon enough though.

So... again... when someone here discovers the perfect, flawlessly designed bike; be sure to post about it -- as I am looking; but not holding my breath. ;)

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Wandering Nomad "Darksider"

I think that was the worst way you can promote a product. If you need to stand on your own accolades not trash another company to make yours look better.
With that said, HDs extensive maintenance requirements are the biggest deterent for me buying one. If they had such bad motors in them,then the only people who wouldn't be complaining are the ones that buy HDs for a conversation piece at backyard paries.

Every marque has its idiosyncrasies. While some will ask why does HD put up with x, other might say why we would put up with the cam chain and clutch issues, and on my current ride, the relatively high failure rate on final drives (≈4%). No manufacturer makes a trouble free machine. If they did, they'd corner the market.

As far as knocking another marque, I understand your point of view and agree with it in principle, but it's a rough market out there and distinguishing the victory from the HD requires some sort of comparison. Many people may not know the minutia (or care), but when presented with it, may give them pause to think about it.

As a general rule, buying a motorcycle is a right brained proposition, especially with HD. I might wager that the average HD owner would not be swayed. We all justify and support what we own and love. They call that inductive reasoning. I think the only people that might be swayed are those new to motorcycles and think they want a HD or those that ride something else.

For the most part, I have had trouble free ownership of the last two kawasakis I have owned. The others were older and were even more idiosyncratic than bikes today and they don't make them like they used to anyway. A good thing. I would have no compunction of recommending a Kawasaki product to anyone and with extreme prejudice and I wouldn't say I wouldn't own one again either. Kawasaki makes a great product. If they have any failings, it's on the marketing side.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by glwilson

Don't know how many seals the Nomad has; but it is more than six I'll bet. My Nomad leaked oil... does that make it a piece of sh!t? My HD has never leaked anything. Does that make it better? Don't think so... just a different bike is all.

Gene, regarding your statement that HD hasn't made any changes to their bikes in years is clearly a wrong fact. There is a perception that HD hasn't changed anything for decades; when in reality they have.

In 2009, their tourers had over 450 changes made to them -- with some of the changes being major changes... enough that a pre-2009 bike cannot be compared to a bike post-2008 any longer. Some HD sites have debated having separate boards on HD's that are post-2008 since there are so many differences and issues that do not apply to to post-2008's.

While there are plenty of component designs that have not changed much; I believe much of the perception that HD hasn't made any changes is due to the fact that their bikes, on the surface, look much as they have for decades -- thus many just assume no changes have been made at all. That is simply not true.

Despite all of the criticism HD gets ad nauseam... they still out sell other bikes. In fact; since the economic recession of 2008, they handily out sold all other bike brands (including Honda for the first time).

Obviously; they have something many riders still want and are willing to pay for.

Now, since I believe in a supply-n-demand form of economics; that approach will demonstrate that a consistently inferior product, as perceived in value versus cost, will not survive in a free-enterprise system. There are no products/services that have lasted a long time in a free-enterprise economy with the absence of value versus cost -- period. So; while many can complain or mouth-off about HD -- or any other bike -- the fact remains, HD's out sell other bikes -- period. So, HD has done something correct repeatedly throughout their history.

And since they are the 800 lb. gorilla in the motorcycle industry; they will always remain the target of the competition. So be it. They certainly must love the attention. If you own a large mutual fund at present (especially a Large Value fund); you likely own a piece of HD. LOL! Think about that? (Someone may want to sell their fund if they don't like the idea of owning HD -- otherwise they remain in a vested position of interest in HD's success. )

Steve brought up several good and honest points about the Nomad in comparison to the Victory. It has its share of deficiencies (as noted by Steve and the numerous posts on this site and others), that do not shine the best-light on its engineering either.

BMW has its share of complaints as well by its owners (as I discovered by lurking on a few BMW sites). It appears that group is relentless in showing no mercy for anything BMW does wrong... obviously since they pay a big price for a product they expect to be flawless. HD forums show the same by some of its owners.

While Victory appears to make a great product, I would imagine they too have their faults -- yet undiscovered; or at least not by me on any site yet... but I am sure there are a few things their owners are not happy about. We'll see soon enough though.

So... again... when someone here discovers the perfect, flawlessly designed bike; be sure to post about it -- as I am looking; but not holding my breath. ;)

You are absolutely right greg and I think I made the relavent comments in my last post. I will always assert that HD stirs things in me no other vehicle manufacturer does. HD has gestalt in spades and knows how to market it better than any other company except may be Budweiser and Apple. I would put those three at the top of the marketing tree, but even so, HD would be king.

I would also say that if you properly maintain any modern bike, it should give many thousands of miles of trouble free riding. It's kind of like getting married. If you know what it takes to keep things going and doing so isn't a deal breaker, you'll be a happy man. :)

I watched all five videos and was totally sucked in. I would love to see a Harley or Nomad rebuttle sales pitch point by point. He keeps referring to what they use in cars. Then why doesn't Victory get with it with some liquid cooling and a driveshaft?

Although the first ten thousand miles on Harley look like a lot of loving care is required after that the maintenance doesn't look too bad. Note that as in the the Nomad manual no mention of checking tensioners. I can't figure that one out.

http://cdn-9.psndealer.com/e2/dealer...%20Touring.pdf

O rings! O rings! O rings! On my Harleys the newest being a 75 I never left town without some O rings and a seal for that dry clutch that always seemed to get wet.


On the video I think he used a little slight of hand in showing how the FOUR tensioners on the Victory work. And he totally lost credibility when at the end he said you have to call buddies if you drop your brand X bike.

[Dave]

Why do you people keep worrying about what others buy and ride?

If you think you're riding the best make and model bike, fine! Stop worrying what others spend their money on.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Dave

Why do you people keep worrying about what others buy and ride?

If you think you're riding the best make and model bike, fine! Stop worrying what others spend their money on.

You could also extend that to politics vis a vis taxation and social issues.

[blowndodge]

Greg, you and Dave do own the "wrong" bike and I've been trying to tell you that!

Whether or not you agree on the presentation that guy makes a compelling argument for product development.

The problematic areas on the HD are somewhat valid, at least with me, because all of my HD buddies have had the stator, tensioner, chain drive and the other components wear out quickly or cause problems.

Now on the bust Greg's chops!!

Greg, didn't Harley recently need to get major concessions from it's employees because they were at a point where they were petitioning the Feds for a bailout or go under?!!

Using the math, if Harley is outselling all other major motorcycle manufacturers and losing money, what does that tell you? As a Finance guy that tells you a lot about the company and it's cost structure; yes?

then mutual fund argument:

You well know that if HD was losing money and the stocks price starts to tank, many of those fund managers will sell that stock in November to "window dress" their portfolios.. I bet that happened with them and no, I would not want my portfolio holding their stock!

There is a niche market for almost anything. Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Lotus's. People with extra money will validate why they need these products. I agree with Ponch on this.

If HD ever looses it's "niche" market they might die..

[Loafer]

Originally Posted by ponch

Well, if you sell anything, you better understand your competition. When I asked the salesman at the HD shop, he had no answer. I think a salesman like the one in the video would have had answers for me. I don't know if it was inexperience or a mentality.

Well I wasn't saying everything, as it would get boring to quite a few in a short time.
Knowing your competition, and being able to figure out your customer's personality, is a predominate factor.
Being able to sell yourself and then the brightest points of your product or services. Knowing how to answer the questions without naming your competitor or putting their product and services down, goes a long way in letting the customer feel you are the one to do business with.
There are lots of variables in trying to sell something and being successful at it. Just saying... :)

[mdgeorge]

I watched all the videos. Very interesting.
There is one thing he mentioned I would want clarification on.
He said the HD oil pump provides 3-8 psi. That seems very low, and if true, I can see why HD has an overheating problem.
On the other hand he stated that the Victory oil pump was 50 psi.
The difference seems huge. Is that realistic.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by loafer

Well I wasn't saying everything, as it would get boring to quite a few in a short time.
Knowing your competition, and being able to figure out your customer's personality, is a predominate factor.
Being able to sell yourself and then the brightest points of your product or services. Knowing how to answer the questions without naming your competitor or putting their product and services down, goes a long way in letting the customer feel you are the one to do business with.
There are lots of variables in trying to sell something and being successful at it. Just saying... :)

The problem is, you are expecting your customers to be educated about what the competition is and has. Such is not the case many times. Furthermore, If it were me, I would phrase it as a ben franklin comparison without commentary. Let the prospective buyer make up their own mind. This is a tried and true sales tactic. In fact, it works well if you have the buyer do it on a piece of paper. No negativity, just facts. I worked that way with computers. Of course some might say it's TMI and sometimes it was, but at least they couldn't walk away and say they didn't know after talking to me.

[glwilson]

Time for me to bust BD's chops....

Most fund managers that were getting rid of HD did that a long, long time ago to capture losses against gains they had from other stocks prior to the "melt-down" -- thus "deep value" managers were buying HD after it hit its bottom.

Many of the deep-value managers don't think HD is going away with their efforts to market and produce bikes in India and eventually China. Thus, a deep-value mgr loves big companies whose stocks are in the trash; which is where HD's has been. So... if you own "large-cap value" fund... you likely have some HD stock -- albeit an extremely small percentage of a percentage-point. (Basis points)

Secondly; my statement about the number of units sold has nothing to do with how the company's performance has done. My statement is merely stating the fact HD has out-sold all other manufacturers... that's all. GM was the largest selling automobile in the world just before it crashed into the ground. Their crashing has nothing to do with the fact they sold more cars than anyone... because that fact stands on its own merit. Profit problems have nothing to do with the issues or facts I mentioned.

Regarding "product-development"... if one wanted to argue against Victory they could easily start by asking why anyone would want to use a V-Twin? After all... a V-Twin isn't exactly the best format for an engine now is it? You know it is not; otherwise V-Twins would be in more vehicles and airplanes if so.

So, one could easily go after Victory for using a more modern-updated engine format -- couldn't they. I mean really, how much can one improve upon an ancient engine format. Sure one could advance some on the technology; but when the day is done... it is still a V-Twin. It might as well be an arguement about an improved steam-engine!

The stator on HD's has been a know problem. So much so that some with high-mileage bikes carry and extra with them on the road. (The approximate price to buy and have it replaced at a dealer is around $500 )

The problem with tensioners.... well Kawasaki has their fair-share of problems with issues similar... so no debate between the two bikes there. Maybe Victory's won't have that problem. We'll see.

Chain drive wearing out quickly? I would have to see that fact to believe it to be a large percentage of the bike made. Sorry BD, I believe that when I can see the statistics showing that to be consistent problem occurring prematurely to its normal wear life. ::) Besides; with HD's you have a lot of owners that cannot afford to maintain their bike so they either do not do the maintenance; or wrench it themselves -- which brings a whole new dynamic to the conversation of how problems occur. ;)

Again. We'll see if HD goes out of business. It could I imagine; but I wouldn't count them out. After all, even Warren Buffet (a "value" investor) put a large sum of money down on the company when it was skidding along the bottom.

Now, again, the number of bikes they sold (out-selling all other bike brands since 2008) continues to show that there is a market for them that perceives their is value in a Harley versus the cost it takes to receive that value. In a free-enterprise market; no company will survive for the long-term when that "value vs. cost" is lost. If HD is there; the units-sold number certainly isn't showing it. In fact; the numbers show that other manufacturers are in danger.

Dont twist my words BD. Just saying partner... ;) :)