Counter-steering, we all do it

[dantama]

Back to counter-steering and how it works/what is taking place.

You begin a counter-steer by pressing forward on the inside grip (doesn't really matter if you press the inside or pull the outside of both). You MAINTAIN counter-steer pressure, but allow the bike to change steering angle for you as the bike begins to move in the direction you really wanted to go. YOU DON"T TELL IT TO SWITCH THROUGH A SECOND BAR INPUT. This is one pressure input to the bars, even though it does two things.

It is NOT a two-step process. You press on the inside grip to initiate the turn and to maintain it. You do NOT press on the inside grip to start the turn and then begin direct-steering (pushing the other direction).

The bike ALWAYS goes in the direction pointed to by its front wheel. So, when you begin a right turn, at any reasonable speed, the front wheel is moved slightly to the LEFT (counter-STEERING) and that causes the bike to begin MOVING TO THE LEFT. At that point the bike is on a HUGE RADIUS left turn and experiences centrifugal forces that push it to the RIGHT.

What follows is a movement of your front wheel with the steering angle adjusting to the RIGHT and the bike is then traveling in a large radius RIGHT turn. The bike did this switch from left to right with one handle bar input NOT TWO.

As proof for any who doubt it go into a sweeping left turn and hold the throttle with your fingers cupped around it, let go with the other hand, have none of your palm touching the grip, fingers only. You will initiate the turn, and can keep the whole turn with finger pressure pulling only. You will be able to modulate the amount of turn by letting the bar push back against your fingers, then adjusting how much pull pressure you use.

Some have stated that you would need to start steering the "wrong" direction, then steer the right direction. For that to be true, you would have to use finger pressure AND palm pressure to go the other way. You will actually be able to initiate and hold the turn with only finger pressure. No reversal of inputs.

The human body is very good at modulating pressure do to what input it's feeling (think about balancing an broomstick). We hold the turn easily whether it increases, or decreases in radius just by slight changes of pressure against the bars.

For those who don't care about the physics of counter-steering, just know that even though the wheel steps out to the left very slightly (not as much as the video makes it look when at speed) then turns right, you only are doing ONE handle bar input.

[dank]

Dan, don't get your back up. We all know you are the guru on this and honor you as such.

You have now modified you original post, I'll say elaborated on your thinking so as to not be confrontational, to include the bars/wheel originally being moved opposite the direction of the desired turn and then "allowed to move" back in the direction of the desired turn. That movement back to the direction of the desired turn is what is neglected in typical explanations, and why I responded. I don't think we need to debate whether allowing it to happen means the rider does it by how they balance and dynamically modulate the pressure on the bars.

Had you started with this write-up I never would have said a thing. So: Well done! Nice explanation.

Guess we'll have to find a different topic for our beer.

[bosko]

I always counter-steer when I power slide around corners.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by dank

Dan, don't get your back up. We all know you are the guru on this and honor you as such.

You have now modified you original post, I'll say elaborated on your thinking so as to not be confrontational, to include the bars/wheel originally being moved opposite the direction of the desired turn and then "allowed to move" back in the direction of the desired turn. That movement back to the direction of the desired turn is what is neglected in typical explanations, and why I responded. I don't think we need to debate whether allowing it to happen means the rider does it by how they balance and dynamically modulate the pressure on the bars.

Had you started with this write-up I never would have said a thing. So: Well done! Nice explanation.

Guess we'll have to find a different topic for our beer.

Good :)

That's why I kept trying to narrow down from you whether you meant one "rider input" on the bars from the rider or not.

Most on here (who are vocal enough to comment :) ) intuitively know how to do it. But for those who aren't brave enough to post and might not really understand it....thinking you physically "turn the wrong way, then turn the right way" with the bars will have them all kinds of mixed up.

Because I participated for a lot of years on a board that was all about how you ride, I ran into a lot more of those people. People who it was truly amazing that they got the bike across town, knowing what it was they believed, or how new to it they were.

For most of those people, knowing how a bike really operates made riding so much more pleasurable; and safe I might add.

I just didn't want anyone here who was just a lurker in the thread to think that it took two motions of the bars from the rider.

The reason why you get two directions of the wheel out of one input is beyond my abilities to explain the physics of, but the very short answer is that a bikes front end geometry is like the front wheels on a shopping cart. But it is a whole lot more complicated than that.

Other times that I've brought things up that people didn't want to acknowledge confusion publicly, I've gotten emails and pm's asking about it. Feel free to do the same on this thread if there are questions that don't want to be asked publicly from anyone.

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

gl, it has an effect, but a minute effect that is totally unnecessary. A dirt bike with a ski on the front and no gyroscopic force still counter-steers at speed on the snow.

Thanks. Was just wondering as it seemed it would have an effect. I have flown airplanes and understand gravity, lift, and drag; which for a bike in a turn it would be gravity, centrifical force (lift), and tire-friction (drag). Oddly enough; both are narrowly close. A prop airplane's only "gyro-effect" would be with the prop; which is at a 90 degree angle to the "plane" verses the front-wheel of a motorcycle.

I just thought that the "gyro-effect" might have more to do with it than that.

Again; thanks.

[pablo]

I've found that with the car tire in back, I have to put a little more effort into counter steering to initiate the turn and hold the counter steer all the way through the turn. On decreasing radius turns you can add more counter steer during the turn to follow the turn radius. I'm sure this is the same for motorcycle tires, but seems even more obvious with the car tire.

Another thing I have noticed, is that I tend to lean my body a little to the left (and the bike to the right) when riding. I guess I've gotten used to Julie looking over my right shoulder. I've found that I can ride in a straight line with the bike leaned a little either right or left by applying a slight pressure to the handle bar on one side or the other and shifting my weight in the appropriate direction. This indicates to me that weight balance in combination with counter steering influences cornering.

[bosko]

Originally Posted by pablo

This indicates to me that weight balance in combination with counter steering influences cornering.

Yup, you can steer the bike while saying "LOOK MA, NO HANDS"

I've seen video with guys steering motorcycles while pulling a marathon wheelie. Pretty impressive. Although many of these types of stunts I would stay away from.

[flightdoc]

This was an interesting conversation. alk about confusion. PUSH LEFT - GO LEFT, PUSH RIGHT - GO RIGHT. When teaching the basic msf course I find it confuses the students to try to explain counter steering BEFORE they use it. Once they do a couple of exercises I may go back to the explanation , if there where questions.
By the way...the example Dan gave about the dirt bike with a ski on the front.....wouldn't that be more liken to the rudder ??

[dantama]

Originally Posted by flightdoc

By the way...the example Dan gave about the dirt bike with a ski on the front.....wouldn't that be more liken to the rudder ??

A rudder with rake and trail perhaps.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by pablo

I've found that with the car tire in back, I have to put a little more effort into counter steering to initiate the turn and hold the counter steer all the way through the turn. On decreasing radius turns you can add more counter steer during the turn to follow the turn radius. I'm sure this is the same for motorcycle tires, but seems even more obvious with the car tire.

Another thing I have noticed, is that I tend to lean my body a little to the left (and the bike to the right) when riding. I guess I've gotten used to Julie looking over my right shoulder. I've found that I can ride in a straight line with the bike leaned a little either right or left by applying a slight pressure to the handle bar on one side or the other and shifting my weight in the appropriate direction. This indicates to me that weight balance in combination with counter steering influences cornering.

It took me a while to figure this one out in practice, but I practiced in a parking lot a few years ago and found that I could get a pretty good lean (for this illustration we'll say to the left) and go straight down a center line of parking stalls. In order to do so, you have to counter-balance your own body weight to the right in equal proportions to the amount of weight of the bike that is leaned over center to the left.

Because Nomads are so heavy, you have to really lean your body a long ways out to the right, to get any significant bike lean to the left.

Being able to do it has no practical benefit in a straight line. I was just trying to figure out if it could be done. And the answer was, yes you can ride straight with a decent amount of lean. It is the same as riding in a stiff cross wind. The bike is leaned, but you are going straight. The force of the wind is offsetting the lean.


The reason that sport bike racers lean off the bike with their most of their body off the bike in a corner is so that the bike can go through the corner not leaned over so far.

If the same bike went through a corner on a track at say 100mph sitting in a normal position, then did it again at 100mph leaned off the bike, the hanging off 100mph turn would leave the bike more upright.

Originally Posted by Bosko

Yup, you can steer the bike while saying "LOOK MA, NO HANDS"

I've seen video with guys steering motorcycles while pulling a marathon wheelie. Pretty impressive. Although many of these types of stunts I would stay away from.

A nomad can be steered using body inputs (no hands on the bars) with pretty good precision. I was convinced by a motorcycle physics expert that it is still counter-steering. Instead of leverage on the bars making the wheel move, it is the weight of the bike transferring pressure to the steering stem to accomplish the same thing as leverage on the bars.

[flightdoc]

Building on Dan's example of lean and go straight, that is one of the reasons it's important to push the grip in the direction you want to go instead of "leaning" in the direction you want. When students do the lean instead of the push they travel straight. Many students are "afraid" to lean the bike in the beginning. Afraid they will fall over. It's similar to what can happen if you intiate a lean and your passenger leans in the opposite direction. Not good.
It's important for newbies to understand that you don't lean to turn, you push the grip.