Victory and HD

[blowndodge]

didn't mean to Greg!!

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by Blowndodge "Darksider"

didn't mean to Greg!!

What???!!!!!

You give up that easy????!!!

Must be a football game on today or something!

[redjay]

I have never been a fan of Harleys or Victory's but if they were the only two manufacturers of motorcycles in the world and roughly the same price my engineering background would sway me towards the Victory. Although the Victory salesmans comments were over the top in some remarks he does have some really valid points on how the two motors are constructed.
My 2 cents.

[ringadingh]

Originally Posted by mdgeorge

I watched all the videos. Very interesting.
There is one thing he mentioned I would want clarification on.
He said the HD oil pump provides 3-8 psi. That seems very low, and if true, I can see why HD has an overheating problem.
On the other hand he stated that the Victory oil pump was 50 psi.
The difference seems huge. Is that realistic.

That is at an idle, as soon as you bring the revs up Im sure the Harley oil pump jumps up to a comparible range.
When I installed an oil gauge on my bike this summer I was surprised at how low the pressure is at an idle on my bike, 5-10 psi when its at operating temperature. As soon as the revs come up it jumps to about 70psi. And on a hot day it will run at around 30-40 psi. On a cold motor in the fall Ive seen it at over 90 when I first start it.

[Loafer]

Originally Posted by ponch

The problem is, you are expecting your customers to be educated about what the competition is and has. Such is not the case many times. Furthermore, If it were me, I would phrase it as a ben franklin comparison without commentary. Let the prospective buyer make up their own mind. This is a tried and true sales tactic. In fact, it works well if you have the buyer do it on a piece of paper. No negativity, just facts. I worked that way with computers. Of course some might say it's TMI and sometimes it was, but at least they couldn't walk away and say they didn't know after talking to me.

Ponch, When I finished talking to a potential customer, they were well informed. I didn't sell everyone, but my reputation as being straight forward had people seeking me out from current customers. And it is possible to talk about HD (the other guy) without mentioning their name, and it is possible to make comparisons, highlighting the pluses of the Victory without putting HD down.
I've had many items at my disposal to sell my customers. And believe me I didn't have to lie to any of them. In fact, people would sometimes pay a little more to me for the product and services I offered. In fact the few customers that left me for the competition over price, all came back when the competition couldn't match the product or services I offered. I enjoyed friendships with all of my customers, and never did them wrong. I believe they appreciated my being honest with them. Not bragging, just saying, not all people that make a living selling products, have to lie. ;)

[ponch]

Originally Posted by loafer

Ponch, When I finish talking to a potential customer, they were well informed. I didn't sell everyone, but my reputation as being straight forward had people seeking me out from current customers. And it is possible to talk about HD (the other guy) without mentioning their name, and it is possible to make comparisons, highlighting the pluses of the Victory without putting HD down.
I've had many items at my disposal to sell my customers. And believe me I didn't have to lie to any of them. In fact, people would sometimes pay a little more to me for the product and services I offered. In fact the few customers that left me for the competition over price, all came back when the competition couldn't match the product or services I offered. I enjoyed friendships with all of my customers, and never did them wrong. I believe they appreciated my being honest with them. Not bragging, just saying, not all people that make a living selling products, have to lie. ;)

I wasn't a salesman. I was a tech in a 3 man shop, so we had to do everything. The competition for Apple is anything Windows. I always gave the facts, even if they didn't favor Apple, I never charged for work I didn't do, nor did I do work that wasn't necessary. It did cause some friction as he actually said every computer that comes in has a hardware problem. Being a tech, I knew that wasn't true and and I told him so and said I wouldn't do it. I just won't screw people over.

[Loafer]

Originally Posted by ponch

I wasn't a salesman. I was a tech in a 3 man shop, so we had to do everything. The competition for Apple is anything Windows. I always gave the facts, even if they didn't favor Apple, I never charged for work I didn't do, nor did I do work that wasn't necessary. It did cause some friction as he actually said every computer that comes in has a hardware problem. Being a tech, I knew that wasn't true and and I told him so and said I wouldn't do it. I just won't screw people over.

I'm glad to hear that.

[markclark57]

Back to the top. . . Very interesting stuff. I haven't been looking for a new ride since I'm quite happy with my Nomad. I don't expect to be looking until this one wears out, but the Victory would be one that I would look at when the time comes. (if the time comes).

[Netnorske]

After watching the videos.....I learned a lot considering I'm not all that mechanical to begin with. I don't think it is a surprise that HD continues to use "old" technology....because their customers like and want it that way. The Victory guy makes that point when mentioning the HD V-Rod. "Newer" (more rice-like) technology that HD owners turned their noses up at in droves.

I think most HD owners buy one because of the nostalgia and lifestyle that comes part and parcel with the purchase of one. Most HD owners, if pressed, would probably admit that reliability, maintenance costs et al, while certainly important factors in considering any bike purchase, take a back seat to the sheer "coolness" of owning one. Personally speaking....I'm well past that...and just want a reliable bike I can ride the hell out of that won't make me go broke... ! However....if I were a wealthy man with no financial worries.....hell ya I'd own one!

Our Nomads have their weak points as does any bike. With the CC's they have, it is almost criminal that they can't produce more HP and torque than they do....hence all the intake mods that are so popular among us. The ride-ability and comfort of my Nomad is very much appreciated....but again....with many mods to improve upon said comfort (seat, risers, etc.)

I don't know why HD put that V-Rod motor in that fugly frame. If they were smart...they would begin to develop a line of cruisers using that engine (or an even more advanced version) in the more eye-appealing frames. I could easily see that Victory motor in the frame of an Ultra Classic! They may not be popular at first...but having them sitting there in the dealership, touting the obvious advantages, and leaving it up to the buyers to decide, I'll bet in time HD could slowly begin to stem the tide of that old-school mentality that to a large degree has held them back from taking advantage of the newer technologies.

I don't think you will ever change the minds of those HD owners who stay close to home day riding, but those who like to ride cross-country would surely be appreciative of a new-and-improved HD bagger built for the longer haul. I would market it like that too...to allow time for it to gain some acceptance. In time more and more buyers would lean toward that and it would eventually win the day.....but that's JMHO.

As it's been stated....HD is certainly doing something right....they sell one hell of a lot of motorcycles, regardless of their maintenance record. If Kawasaki had ANY kind of marketing department....they might sell a few more too!

[ponch]

Not so easy to get back up again:

[blowndodge]

that clipped sucked with the music.... here is the raw footage

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Blowndodge "Darksider"

that clipped sucked with the music.... here is the raw footage

I muted the sound...

[ringadingh]

The V Rod motor is a Porsche design, and is the most up to date engine they provide. I like them myself, and will have to try one out some day. I think a lot of it is the nostalgic appeal of a traditional looking V twin motor in a bike that Harley owners like. I like the look myself, and to me its still a great looking engine design. The Indian Chiefs are one of my favorites, but in all honesty I doubt Id want a real original one with all of thier old school technology.
The Vulcan Drifter can be made to look quite good and have a lot more of the modern designs built into them. The new Kingswood Indians are also really nice, although I can't see too many people
spending that kind of cash on a bike.
They have been saying that the HD air cooled engines are nearing the end of the road because of the trouble meeting EPA regulations, eventually as the rules tighten up they will not be able to pass, and a new design will have to be built.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Ringadingh

The V Rod motor is a Porsche design, and is the most up to date engine they provide. I like them myself, and will have to try one out some day. I think a lot of it is the nostalgic appeal of a traditional looking V twin motor in a bike that Harley owners like. I like the look myself, and to me its still a great looking engine design. The Indian Chiefs are one of my favorites, but in all honesty I doubt Id want a real original one with all of thier old school technology.
The Vulcan Drifter can be made to look quite good and have a lot more of the modern designs built into them. The new Kingswood Indians are also really nice, although I can't see too many people
spending that kind of cash on a bike.
They have been saying that the HD air cooled engines are nearing the end of the road because of the trouble meeting EPA regulations, eventually as the rules tighten up they will not be able to pass, and a new design will have to be built.

Look at the V2K. That has more in common with a HD engine than a victory or other Kawasaki engines. Still, Kawasaki got power out of it and passed emissions. HD could tak an approach like and liquid cool the heads and the upper 1/4 of the cylinder. It still looks like an air cooled engine spare the radiator.

There are other air cooled bikes out there as well that will meet the same fate. Yamaha uses air cooled vtwins and BMW has the air cooled boxer (Actually air and oil). I know BMW is already developing a liquid cooled version, so I guess it's just a matter of time.

[cajun2wheels]

My old Victory had an oil cooler and a capacity of six quarts of oil.Never ran hot even in the hottest days of our Louisiana summer.Harley should take the hint.