2nd New Battery, Still Dead

[Snake Ranch]

I may be off in left field when I say this about your case, but some of these starters find the ground circuit through the brushes that make contact with the armature in the starter. One thing that can happen is you have a bad bar on the armature which can give you intermittent problems. If your starter has high mileage it could be a source or part of your problem.
If you pull your starter apart, look at the condition of the armature and brush contact area. Sometimes you can clean this with sandpaper depending on how bad it is burnt. The condition of the brushes needs to be inspected. The thing to keep in mind is the idea of a good circuit, is this a good ground circuit? Are the brushes worn and not making good contact? The difficult part is sometimes it is had to pinpoint the exact problem in the starter without special tools, but if it points to the starter its easier to change it. I hope you find the source of the problem.

[tomm]

Had a lawn tractor with a very similar problem once. After several batteries and lots of measurements, I was pretty sure I had a bad starter motor that was drawing high current, to the point that it even drew down a car battery. In the end, it turned out to be valves out of adjustment, making it too hard for the starter to crank the engine over. Just goes to point out that finding and fixing these kinds of problems requires a very methodical approach, slowly eliminating one thing after another until you finally get there.

As for your problem, I'm still not clear which of the following is happening:
1) There is something drawing current from the battery when the bike is turned off.
2) The charging system is compromised and therefore failing to keep the battery at full charge while the bike is running. So the battery is actually draining while running.
3) Starting and / or running the bike is drawing much more current from the battery than it should, and therefore leaving the battery in a partially charged state after you've run it for a while. The charging system is either compromised and not capable of re-charging the battery, the excess current draw is more than the charging system can provide, or the bike doesn't run long enough to re-charge the battery.

So, a few questions:
1) If you remove the battery from the bike, fully charge it, and let it sit for a couple of days, will it start the bike? What is the voltage after you charged it, after a few days, and while you are trying to start it?
2) If you start the bike, ride it, and then shut if down, can you immediately re-start it? Again, what is the voltage after you shut down the bike after a ride, and while you are trying to re-start it? How about if you let it sit for several days? What is voltage then, will the bike start, and what is the voltage while cranking.
3) What are the exact voltages at 3000, 2000, 1500 and 1000 (idle) rpm, both with and without the headlight on (disconnect the headlight to measure with the headlight off). Start with a fully charged battery.

Those answers should point to the battery, the charging system or the load system as the source of the problem.

All that being said however, I think I'm reading that something is drawing down the battery when the bike is not running. If so, the only thing that I can think of that is connected to the battery that doesn't go through the ignition switch are the rectifiers. I think you have a bad diode with a high impedance short in one of the rectifiers.

To check, take off the left side cover and unplug the rectifiers from the stators. There should be six pins in the plug. Hold the plug so that the locking tab is facing up. There will be three pins along the top and three along the bottom. Use your ohm meter to measure the resistance (10K scale) from each of the bottom pins to each of the two corner pins on the top. For each measurement, measure in both directions (switch the meter leads between the two pins that you are measuring). So twelve measurements in total for each rectifier. In one direction, the reading should be infinite. In the other, about mid-scale for each set of pins. If one set doesn't measure out like that, the rectifier is bad. I think there is a good chance that you will find that one set of measurements doesn't.

Note: Some meters don't have enough voltage to forward-bias a diode, and therefore the measurement will be infinite in both directions. Those meters usually have a diode test mode.

Also, measure between each of the bottom pins on the stator side plug. Three measurements total. Each should be between 0.33 and 0.49 ohms.

Finally, measure between each of the bottom pins on the stator side plug and ground. Should be infinite for all three.

You can also try putting a 10 ohm, 1 watt or more resistor in series with the positive battery cable (ignition off) and measure the voltage across the resistor. Should be battery voltage on both sides. Any voltage drop at all and you have a current leak.

[dakota7557]

Ryan, I performed the test that you posted and had all zero's on both the positive and negative...I also did the light test while taking one cable off at a time and all checked out...no juice appears to be drawing from my battery at this time...I believe that the acc shouldn't show anything since I have no accessories hooked up to them...I believe Scott is right about the fan since it needs to reach a certain temperature before it will show...in 24 hours the battery has stayed @ 12.65...I hope I'm good to go since it started right up...It's less than 20 here in Rapid City so I don't believe I'm going to go riding anytime soon...Think I'll just put things back together and go from there...If you don't hear anything back then life is good...Keeping my fingers crossed...lol...Electrical is frustrating to say the least...Have my extenders and clutch spring to put in this week...

[dakota7557]

Originally Posted by tomm

Had a lawn tractor with a very similar problem once. After several batteries and lots of measurements, I was pretty sure I had a bad starter motor that was drawing high current, to the point that it even drew down a car battery. In the end, it turned out to be valves out of adjustment, making it too hard for the starter to crank the engine over. Just goes to point out that finding and fixing these kinds of problems requires a very methodical approach, slowly eliminating one thing after another until you finally get there.

As for your problem, I'm still not clear which of the following is happening:
1) There is something drawing current from the battery when the bike is turned off.
2) The charging system is compromised and therefore failing to keep the battery at full charge while the bike is running. So the battery is actually draining while running.
3) Starting and / or running the bike is drawing much more current from the battery than it should, and therefore leaving the battery in a partially charged state after you've run it for a while. The charging system is either compromised and not capable of re-charging the battery, the excess current draw is more than the charging system can provide, or the bike doesn't run long enough to re-charge the battery.

So, a few questions:
1) If you remove the battery from the bike, fully charge it, and let it sit for a couple of days, will it start the bike? What is the voltage after you charged it, after a few days, and while you are trying to start it?
2) If you start the bike, ride it, and then shut if down, can you immediately re-start it? Again, what is the voltage after you shut down the bike after a ride, and while you are trying to re-start it? How about if you let it sit for several days? What is voltage then, will the bike start, and what is the voltage while cranking.
3) What are the exact voltages at 3000, 2000, 1500 and 1000 (idle) rpm, both with and without the headlight on (disconnect the headlight to measure with the headlight off). Start with a fully charged battery.

Those answers should point to the battery, the charging system or the load system as the source of the problem.

All that being said however, I think I'm reading that something is drawing down the battery when the bike is not running. If so, the only thing that I can think of that is connected to the battery that doesn't go through the ignition switch are the rectifiers. I think you have a bad diode with a high impedance short in one of the rectifiers.

To check, take off the left side cover and unplug the rectifiers from the stators. There should be six pins in the plug. Hold the plug so that the locking tab is facing up. There will be three pins along the top and three along the bottom. Use your ohm meter to measure the resistance (10K scale) from each of the bottom pins to each of the two corner pins on the top. For each measurement, measure in both directions (switch the meter leads between the two pins that you are measuring). So twelve measurements in total for each rectifier. In one direction, the reading should be infinite. In the other, about mid-scale for each set of pins. If one set doesn't measure out like that, the rectifier is bad. I think there is a good chance that you will find that one set of measurements doesn't.

Note: Some meters don't have enough voltage to forward-bias a diode, and therefore the measurement will be infinite in both directions. Those meters usually have a diode test mode.

Also, measure between each of the bottom pins on the stator side plug. Three measurements total. Each should be between 0.33 and 0.49 ohms.

Finally, measure between each of the bottom pins on the stator side plug and ground. Should be infinite for all three.

You can also try putting a 10 ohm, 1 watt or more resistor in series with the positive battery cable (ignition off) and measure the voltage across the resistor. Should be battery voltage on both sides. Any voltage drop at all and you have a current leak.

Tom, thanks for posting all this...Wow, kind of mind boggling...If my battery goes down, I will keep your post as a sticky to test the rectifier...I can see you know about 10X more than myself when it comes to electrics...lol...I will hang on to this post if I'm still having problems..Wish you lived near Rapid City!! LOL...Thanks again Tom :)

[tomm]

Hopefully your problem was just a bad connection someplace and your problem is now fixed, but honestly, I don't think so. Symptoms don't seem to add up. Otherwise removing the battery, charging it, and putting it back in wouldn't have temporarily "fixed" the problem unless the problem was the connection at the battery, which I believe I read that it did. Just to be safe, I would not go on any long rides for a while and don't shut off the bike until you get back home.

Bottom line, I don't think your conclusion is correct "that no juice is flowing from the battery at this time," at least not from the test you did as described. I think all you've done is verify that the cables and the connections at each end of them are good, not that there is no current flowing through them.

In order for you to measure a voltage drop greater than zero across anything, you need current flowing through a resistance. (Voltage = Current times Resistance.) No current or for all intents and purposes no resistance equals no voltage drop. If you have a current leak, it isn't large, certainly under an amp or you would be smelling something getting very hot. If the cables and connections are good, the resistance will be so low that 1 amp will produce a negligible voltage drop. You will essentially measure zero as you did.

That's the reason for adding the 10 ohm resistor in series with the cable and measuring across the resistor. If there is current flowing, you will measure a voltage across it.

It sounded from your description that it took several days for your battery not to start the bike. So just keep monitoring that battery voltage. If it drops below 12.6 over the next couple of weeks, something is wrong.

Also, if you by chance do have a bad rectifier, your charging system won't be working at full capacity and riding the bike could actually be discharging the battery.

Originally Posted by dakota7557

Ryan, I performed the test that you posted and had all zero's on both the positive and negative...I also did the light test while taking one cable off at a time and all checked out...no juice appears to be drawing from my battery at this time...I believe that the acc shouldn't show anything since I have no accessories hooked up to them...I believe Scott is right about the fan since it needs to reach a certain temperature before it will show...in 24 hours the battery has stayed @ 12.65...I hope I'm good to go since it started right up...It's less than 20 here in Rapid City so I don't believe I'm going to go riding anytime soon...Think I'll just put things back together and go from there...If you don't hear anything back then life is good...Keeping my fingers crossed...lol...Electrical is frustrating to say the least...Have my extenders and clutch spring to put in this week...

[Silent Sam]

Well I'm sure the advice of those who continue to 'survive' in the deep-freeze climates..are the best to follow...
However..being a "once-wuza"..and having extreme experience with the Dakota/Wyo winter enviorments --oil drilling-cat skinnin-otr trucking-hunting coyotes from a super cub-doors open @40 below(f)..and cowboying/"pulling calves" @the same temps !

As I recall those temps will cause your battery to output less than max power...I assume you have a low draw short circuit some where in your system

... due to being to old to relate to "hi-tech" I just run a constant hook up of a Battery Tender JR....cost about $30 (but then having experienced several severe encounters with frost bite.. I dont(cant) ride at tremps lower than 60 degrees(f)

[killswitch3612]

I had a volusia with a similiar issue. There is contacts on a switch on the clutch lever that gets corroded and will not allow the bike to start.....try cleaning that.

[Bamabrat]

I have a question. it may have been addressed here and i was just too lazy to read through everything to find the answer, but i did skim. I'm not trying to hijack the thread...this could be handy for other people. My radio has a memory wire which they (Sony) says to hook up directly to the battery to keep the clock accurate. Obviously this is pulling a small amount of juice all the time. Is this going to slowly drain my battery? Even during the winter, I ride my bike at least once every week, but most of the time 3-4 times a week. I ride a vanpool to work, and ride my bike from my house to my vanpool, less than a mile away. So even if it's 13 degrees like last week, I can survive for a quick ride. That said, do I need to disconnect my continuous "memory" wire, or would that only be an issue if I let the bike sit for extended periods?

[kmaysob]

Originally Posted by Bamabrat

I have a question. it may have been addressed here and i was just too lazy to read through everything to find the answer, but i did skim. I'm not trying to hijack the thread...this could be handy for other people. My radio has a memory wire which they (Sony) says to hook up directly to the battery to keep the clock accurate. Obviously this is pulling a small amount of juice all the time. Is this going to slowly drain my battery? Even during the winter, I ride my bike at least once every week, but most of the time 3-4 times a week. I ride a vanpool to work, and ride my bike from my house to my vanpool, less than a mile away. So even if it's 13 degrees like last week, I can survive for a quick ride. That said, do I need to disconnect my continuous "memory" wire, or would that only be an issue if I let the bike sit for extended periods?

NO it wont be an issue

[Bamabrat]

Originally Posted by kmaysob

NO it wont be an issue

Thanks. I was hoping not. One less thing to worry about.

[Silent Sam]

I hope I'm not detouring this thread.....referring to Bamabrat's comment/question...
As I recall the discharge rate for a lead-acid battery is around 1% per day..as it just sit's !
If you are only riding your bike "less than a mile" about three days a week...
With no battery tender hook up between rides...the discharge "rate" on you bikes battery..Might Be.. to high over time to catch-up on re-charge during those short rides.. ??? depending on the overall condition of your battery and the temps of the enviroment it exist's in !
Bear in mind the headlite is on all the time its running..the starter pulls a lot of juice...and a short run at cold temps can all work together to pull down the reserve charge !

[Bamabrat]

Originally Posted by Silent Sam

I hope I'm not detouring this thread.....referring to Bamabrat's comment/question...
As I recall the discharge rate for a lead-acid battery is around 1% per day..as it just sit's !
If you are only riding your bike "less than a mile" about three days a week...
With no battery tender hook up between rides...the discharge "rate" on you bikes battery..Might Be.. to high over time to catch-up on re-charge during those short rides.. ??? depending on the overall condition of your battery and the temps of the enviroment it exist's in !
Bear in mind the headlite is on all the time its running..the starter pulls a lot of juice...and a short run at cold temps can all work together to pull down the reserve charge !

Thanks Sam. Understood. I have a tender and charge it when my volt meter shows its low. I ride it to masons practice 30+ miles one way, then when possible on weekends. Today I cranked it for the 1st time in over a week and it fired up quickly and warmed quickly. It was mid 40 degrees. It struggled at 13 degrees but so did I.

[tomm]

That switch has been known to be a problem, but wouldn't be the case here. An earlier thread indicated that the starter solenoid clicked, and that wouldn't happen if that starter lockout switch was open. Also, that switch only comes into play if the bike isn't in neutral. If the solenoid clicks but the bike doesn't turn over, it's a bad or discharged battery, bad connection or cable, bad solenoid, bad starter, or something making it too hard to spin the engine.

However, I noticed something else in reading back through this thread. Earlier, it stated that a new battery was put on the charger for a couple of hours and then installed. Also, the voltage read 12.5 volts, so about fully charged.

Both are problems. A new battery should be charged for 5 - 10 hours, then allowed to sit for 30 minutes, and then checked. If voltage is not 12.6 or higher, then it needs to be re-charged. A battery measuring at 12.5 volts is only about 75% charged and needs about 4 hours on a charger. Beginning to wonder if this whole thread might be about improper preparation of a new battery. Does kind of fit the symptoms.

Originally Posted by killswitch3612

I had a volusia with a similiar issue. There is contacts on a switch on the clutch lever that gets corroded and will not allow the bike to start.....try cleaning that.

[Mongo PHUMC]

I don't know if your 2000 is wired the same but:


Let me add to all this:

When my bike burnt up the J2 ground block starting was the first issue I noticed. I would hit the start button and it would just click- hit it again and it would fire up. I thought it odd and figured I needed a new battery. Being I was on a road trip I just kept going. Next thing that happened is the bike quit charging. Found myself dead in a gas station (won't bore you with all the details)

In the end the whole problem was that J2 ground connector. And your bike has the same "issues" that would make you believe a loose connection: sometimes starts/sometimes doesn't.

Check your J2 ground block. It is located forward of the battery box under the rear of the gas tank. Mine was wrapped in electrical tape. It has 14 black w/ yellow stripe wires coming out of it. The block itself is orange about 1"x1"x.5".

[Silent Sam]

..All good advice/knowledge...from the big-guy's (that's why I like to hang out here !)
I leave my bike hooked to the battery tender jr..all the time its in the garage...
A "tender" isnt a "charger"..per se~
A tender will bring the battery up to max charge..then monitor the battery's "condition" and will trickle in just the right amout of charge to keep it -fully charged- and keep it from "sulfateing the plates"...
If the battery sits...and loses charge (they all do) until you need to "charge it"..it has already accumulated some "sufation" on the plates..and thus reduced the charge it will accept....At that point you need a "DE-SULFINATOR", and that's a different can of worms...