Random thoughts on death and dying

[dantama]

The way I dealt with Chuck's death was just by reading posts and not posting much. Kind of a just sit back and observe and process type of a thing. After sitting back and processing, I'll put down some random thoughts I had while processing. Beware, it's long'

I didn't know Chuck one bit. Didn't know his personality or anything. I knew his ostrich avatar better than I knew him :) I first saw mention of his death on the staff forum and at first thought something like, "this is over the line, how is he going to make this joke not offensive?" Then realized it wasn't an offensive joke, a member really did die.

When I participated on VROC for many years, I experienced member deaths such as Wolfman and Snake and others. I remember consciously thinking out that sooner of later, somebody here was going to die, but was enjoying the fact that this was a young enough board that nobody had died.

The social scientist/cultural anthropologist side of me finds it strange to feel strong emotions about the deaths of people whom I have never met and don't know. I don't get worked up about celebrity deaths, I don't know the people; so it's not in my nature to get emotionally involved in the deaths of people that I don't know.

I didn't know Chuck, and as I said I knew his avatar better than I knew him. But the emotions that I felt were real. Somehow a person that I only knew on the Internet, and only knew because he happened to have the same model of bike as I do, was effecting me. As I said, the social scientist/cultural anthropologist side of me finds it strange to feel those emotions knowing that they came about through technology that I hadn't ever used nine years ago.

But the emotions were real, so knowing people on the Internet really does effect our lives. These relationships become real even when you haven't met.

That all said, reading all the pages of Chuck's blog was interesting and I know him a lot better after reading it. I would have liked him in person I'm sure. I'm drawn to people who value substance over image. I don't know if Chuck would find it complimentary, but I see him as a motorcyclist, not a biker. Too many bikers and not enough motorcyclists IMO. Chuck seemed to be about enjoying riding, not looking like a bad ass. I like that.

As to his death, without trying to sound insensitive, it was a good death. Those that went on the CO550 ride know what I mean. We discussed death and dying on that ride over dinner. I said that the death that I wanted was to know that I'm going just seconds before it happens, then be gone. I related that getting in a crash with an 18 wheeler that swerved into my lane would be a good death. I would know that I'm going, but not have time to worry and suffer. So from my perspective, Chuck had a good death.

I know that many don't see death the way I do, but for me, I don't know what the rush to stay alive is all about. It's like some kind of race to see who can be the oldest. I'm not running in that race.

For many, the life cycle starts at being an infant, maturing, declining, and turning back into an infant. I don't want to go back out as an infant getting my diapers changed. I want to go out on top (don't worry, I'm not suicidal).

A quarter back that I liked was Steve Young of the 49rs. He was a multi time Superbowl champion who got worried about too many concussions and went out a champion at the top of his game. That's how I want to go. I don't want to be like the quarter backs who decline and get traded around until they are 4th string somewhere, then get to the point where nobody will even have them. I see life a bit like that, go out on top.

So I'm not running in the race to see who can get to be the oldest and I have a living will to try to prevent somebody from trying to make me enter that race. When my chance comes, I'm outta here :)

That all said, it is sad that Chuck has passed and will be difficult for his family to live without him. But it sounds like he lived a good life, was a good person, and went out in a good way doing what he loved. If I could be so lucky to go that way, not deteriorating with alzheimer's and turning into an infant.

So after being quiet for a while and thinking about his death, these are just some random thoughts about death and dying.

God speed Chuck.

[socwkbiker]

Dan, I couldn't agree with you more. When I first started "talking" to people over the internet, I thought it was impossible to become attached to those people in any way due to the lack of personal interaction. I couldn't have been more wrong.

I met Chuck at the Texas Meet and Greet and at the Central Rally. He led the ride home when we left and I truly felt proud to ride with this man. Not because he looked like some badass biker, but because of the confidence he exuded on the road. You're right Dan, he was a motorcyclist.

Emotionally, this has torn me up more than I let on, even in personal conversations. Chuck's death caused me to reflect on the deaths of my grandparents, the people who raised me. They had similarities in their personalities and their enjoyment of the road. Even into their '80's my grandparents drove down to Ft. Pierce, FL each winter. This was a common practice, driving all over the country for vacations, similar to Chuck's desire to ride all over the country.

To give you some insight, I didn't cry at the funerals of either grandparent, mainly because I was being strong for everyone. When I heard about Chuck, I expected it to be the same, but then I started reading what everyone here said, read the blogs, and, as the saying goes, that's all she wrote. For the first time in a lot of years, I genuinely cried over the death of someone important to me: my grandparents, my father and Chuck. Amazing how grief works, isn't it?

Chuck lived and died doing what he loved, riding a motorcycle. I only hope that I will be lucky enough to go out knowing that I had lived the way Chuck did.

RIP my friend

Dan, Chuck Burt definately died before his time was due, but for many decades the saying in this business has been, "Live fast. Die young. Leave a good looking corpse."

I was there too, back in the day.

Now in a way it was a joke, but in a way we were serious; because young people look at old people in horror and think, "My God, NO! I don't ever want to be like that."

But that's just seeing the surface, and nothing that's beneith. People understand a lot more of life as they get older. That knowlege is important to the human race. If we didn't hang around this planet as long as most of us do, life would not be what it is for young people. There are some achievements that take a lifetime of many decades to bring about. Look at the number of great art works, the music, the inventions, the discoveries that were made by people well past their prime of life.

There was a time, not too long ago, when I would be considered very old at the age of 53, because the average person only lived to be in his 30's. Let's not rush to bring those days back upon ourselves, hey?

[cactusjack]

Personally, I'd rather go out in a big ball of fire than die slowly, painfully, a little bit more each day like my dad did. He had cancer, and as a young man, I watched him wither away. I don't want to go through that and I don't want to put my loved ones through that, either.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a death wish, I just would rather die with my boots on.

[unwind2]

Dan

Thanks for this post. I too was having a hard time dealing with Chuck's death. I read thru the post, looked at pictures of Chuck, posted a few myself but other than that did not feel like posting or reading other subjects on the forum yesterday. I thought a ride would help....went for a short ride yesterday. It realy didn't help.

Today I took a 3 hour ride with pegs down. I would think about Chuck and say 'dam' at times and then tear up. But then while riding and enjoying my Nomad I reflected on how much he enjoyed riding and enjoyed his Nomad. That he was doing what he loved and that it was probably quick. I also reflected on how much better a place this world is for having the pleasure of his exsistence and that I was fortunate enough to have met and know a little about him. This led to reflection on the KawaNow group here. This has turned out to be such a wonderful group of diverse folks who first met due to a likeness for a certiain bike and have all become so close. I'm better now....thankful for having all you guys and gals to call friends.....glad to have shared part of this world with Chuck.

Originally Posted by cactusjack

...Don't get me wrong, I don't have a death wish, I just would rather die with my boots on.

Me too. I just want to be 99 when it happens. ;)

[macmac]

Thanks Dan, This post makes it possible for me to speak. I didn't know Chuck either. So what you said works well for me.

I have seen more than my fair share of recent deaths from all causes, to the point I no longer have any fear of death. It happens.

Like Jack I watched my father die of cancer, My little brother took a motorbike ride and went home for lunch, where he suffered a anurism. Had he lived another week he would have turned 40. He was gone in a instant.

There were murders..
Others met timely death, but this all was over a very short time.

Then I do Buck Skinning, and one buddy Jay, got up in the morning, walked to the lakes edge at camp, and said what a beatiful day. Those were the last words he ever spoke.

When someone like this passes, they leave a hole in many hearts, and so far as I would know it takes time to fill that hole, with whats left of the best memories.

This internet meeting to me is just like real friends. And it leads at least me to meeting real friends face to face. To me real friends are there and willing to be there when and where you need them.

I crossed the USA on my Nomad and met internet friends face to face and stayed in their homes 3 nights each expect for 2. Cadd's house was one, where the plan was that way, but another rider in Utah allowed 2 more as my wife took ill. They wanted us to linger longer, but I had made my rules in a way that imposing wouldn't happen.

To me even a quailty picture can show someone like Chuck was alive. There are some people who are like walking dead, and unlike Chuck have no light in their eyes..

Probably these will be my last words on the topic, but with out this thread I wouldn't have said a word. I hope I am not out of line.. mac

I believe in time anyone can learn to read anothers eyes and see if they are alive. Speaking of the ones we miss, keeps them alive.

[blowndodge]

Dan, Jeff and the rest:

I can safely say you spoke for most of us on this. I don't look at death with fright anymore. I actually anticipate it (and like you I'm anything but suicidal!). I'm just not scared at 51 of death anymore.

My feelings are selfish because lots of you got to meet this man in person and I'm jealous in a way. I want Chuck to be alive for me!! I'm pittying me for the moment for a lost opportunity.

I thought all day about his final moments. Hoping that everything was in "slow motion" as they say and that he went out with no fear or pain. I hope that more than anything.

I watched my mom wither away with Glioblastoma (same thing Ted Kenndy has) and it was truely awful. There was pain for her everyday for the last 6 months. If I can help it (probably can't) I don't every want that feeble conclusion for me.

Chuck didn't die that way so I consider his life a little short but SWEET baby! I'm just hurting for selfish reasons.

Being a math major I understand probabilities and statistics and before the 3 Rallys I was looking at the size of our membership and "doing the math". Calculating the probability of surviving a motorcycle accident vs. in a car and miles traveled per accident and the numbers started talking to me. As in Vegas, the number 12 is coming down the crap table with mathmatical certainty! It creeped me out and I put it out of my mind.

Chucks accident was a shock but not a surprise. I wish I could tell all of you to ride extra careful because I seem to hurt for others far more than hurt for me. I know more will come someday and I will hurt again. I care about you.

Just some thoughts on why I'm sad over this.

Please try to be carefull out there.

I didn't really know Chuck either, except for his posts here. That will have to be enough for me. Death gives us no other choice in the matter.

I know that by this time in our lives every one of us on this thread has stared death in the face. I know you have, BD. Scott & SWB too? I'm pretty sure. Dan? I don't know. Riding as he does I'd put money on the proposition, though.

I'm lucky because death hasn't stared too hard at me yet; just hard enough to get in "The Club". Just barely hard enough, thank God. I don't know if any of you have ever heard of "The Borrowed Time Club", but a few of us are possibly near to being senior members these days. (Mac's gotta be the freakin' president by now, thanks to a carload of drunken teenyboppers and some other things that are really none of my business to mention.)

Anyhow, anybody that's ridden motorcycles long enough to get old pretty much automatically becomes a member, but you can be a member at 16 years old if you manage to stare death down hard enough.

[oldbikers]

I have had several close calls and there is not a day that I get out of bed that I don't hurt but I have a lot to be thankful for as I have said many times when my time comes I want to go fast I just hope the good lord will let me put the kickstand down before he takes me. Chuck died doing something he loved I hope I am as lucky. Rest in peace Chuck

[blowndodge]

Yes Gregg. I'm a full fledged member. Many times over...

From this day forward I will always feel like a lucky man that I'm still here and riding. Every day is just topping on the cake for me.

[dantama]

It's interesting having blunt talks about death and dying and the responses have been good to read. Thanks for posting.

My own thoughts stem from an unnatural fear of getting old. Some of it has always been with me, but it was strengthened by experiences like BD's of watching my maternal grandparents both die with alzheimer's, and living for years with it, too healthy to die.

I strike up friendships with older people easily and have had two good friends, one 96 and the other near 90, both feeling like they were stuck alive wishing that death would come. Without their spouses they felt too lonely, but couldn't die. One finally did die, but the 96 year old has been waiting 40 years to die. That's how long ago her husband died.

To top it all off, my mother was recently diagnosed with alzheimer's. I hope she doesn't live with it as long as her mother did with it.

I don't believe in suicide, and will never do it, but taking a death when you get the chance might be what would save me from alzheimer's, so if I get the chance, I'm going. I made a deal on the CO550 ride that I'd perform CPR if my riding partner wanted me to (I'm certified) But they better just let me die if something happens on the ride. No CPR for me.

In discussing this with family members, I realize I have a somewhat unnatural fear of getting old. But perhaps being dead isn't such a bad deal when you get there?

So if I go like Chuck did, go ahead and tear up a bit; but then say, Yup that's how he wanted to go. Good on him, glad he got out the way he wanted to. Bring fireworks to the funeral :)

Rest assured that I will do nothing to cause my own death. If it happens on my bike it will truly be an accident, and nothing that I tried to cause. But it will be a good death if it happens on its own, rather than a withering death that I'm stuck waiting for.

Luckily for me my wife feels the same, but we had to have the conversation in front of family so that they wouldn't think I was evil when I let her die when she could be saved.

[pirate]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone. I agree with you that say you don't want to die a long and painful death. I watched my grandfather suffer from ahlzheimer's (amongst other things), and that was just excruciating. It hurt so badly to go visit him and have him ask me ten times in two hours what grade in school I was in. Towards the end of his life, he would ask who I was ten times in two hours. It was even harder watching my mom deal with his death.
Even before Chuck's death, I was thinking about how dangerous it really is to ride a motorcycle. One day when I was riding, I got to thinking about how close I am to death everytime I ride. Here in North Dakota, we don't have a lot of four-lane highways/interstates, most of our highways are two lane roads, with oncoming traffic right next to you. The only thing separating you from a truck coming 70 mph towards you is a line painted in the center of the road. Think about this for a second: there is no physical barrier, no fence to keep them over there. If a driver nods off or is distracted for a second, they could be in my line in a split second and it would be all over. This doesn't just apply to bike riders, it's anyone on the road.
But, does this stop me from riding: heck no! I have many people ask how I can ride motorcycle when it's so dangerous. I often hear, "But you could die so easily on a bike!" True, but I could die easily by walking across my street to get the mail too and being hit by a truck. If we didn't live our lives how we choose, we would just build a box made of lead, put it underground, and live in it 24 hours a day sucking our thumb. I choose not to do that.
The quote I have on my signature line is pretty much how I live my life: "Life is ours, we live it our way." It comes from one of my favorite Metallica songs, "Nothing Else Matters."
Bless you all and RIP Chuck.

PC

[donguer]

I believe things happen for a reason. It seems we are all around that age where we have more years behind us than we do ahead. I know I am definitely part of the "Borrowed Time Club". When the subject comes up around me all I say to them is "God already sent me that Memo". Its funny I wasn't scared either when the white light came my way.Chuck's death has brought a new Light to this forum.
It's nice to know people that get supportive and stronger when it gets tough in the world,
Even if its only on the internet. Somehow for me that doesn't make a difference.
I said it on another topic here in this forum but I don't mind saying it again.
I'm Damn Proud to know you ALL!

[fish]

We both have living wills. Why let the doctors and hospitals suck-up every penny we have and rape the insurance co. just so I may live like a vegtable. I DON'T THINK SO!!

I'm like Dan in his way of thinking, thanks for putting it into words and posting it Dan so I didn't have to, besides till I would get done typing it I'd die of old age.

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