Counter-steering, we all do it

[dantama]

There was a question about counter-steering a while back from Trip that got some responses that made it appear that there is room for more understanding on the topic.

For those that are unfamiliar with the term (I didn't hear the name of it for the first 15 years of my riding) it simply means you are "steering" the opposite way the bike turns. Above slow parking lot speeds, if you want to turn to the right, you push/pull the bars as if you were turning left. If that doesn't intuitively sound correct. Close your eyes, hold your hands out like you are holding the bars on your bike, and picture a nice 50 mph sweeper curving off to the right. Say it is a down hill and you can let go of the throttle hand and use your left hand, approach the curve in your mind and go through the curve.

If you pulled your left hand back towards you, you went through the curve the only way possible at that speed (or any other speed above 10-15 mph). You turned left, to go right. Now picture parking your bike in the drive way and deciding to move it to the left side of the drive. Pulling the left hand towards you now makes you go left, not right. Counter-steering is where turning at speed is done the opposite way it would be done at parking lot speed.

Some comments made it seem as if it were optional, and you can "decide" to do it. It isn't optional, and above 10-15 mph, you have to do it. There is no other way, it is the only way. So if it sounds new, you already do it; perhaps it just feels naturally right.

Here is what happens when you counter-steer. If you put forward pressure on the right grip, for example, you will cause the front wheel to point very slightly to the left of the direction the bike was moving prior to that pressure (same as it would in your drive way, but in a very minute amount). The result is that the bike will lean more to the RIGHT and quickly begin moving slightly more to the RIGHT of the path you had been traveling in before you applied that pressure. The amount of the slight left tracking just before the right turning is so slight that with wet tires on dry ground it would probably be imperceptible looking at your tire tracks.

Your bike wants to right itself back to straight due to the front end geometry, so you have to hold pressure to keep it leaned and turning. When it's time to straighten back up, unless you need to aggressively go back up, it doesn't take much pressure to go back to straight. The bike already wants to go back to straight.

So to be clear, you can not choose to counter-steer. It is the only way to get around a turn/curve about 10-15mph. You are already doing it. If you had no idea you were doing it, you instinctively did what felt natural, and it was the right thing. Bicycles do the same thing at higher speeds, perhaps you learned it there.

On other boards I've run across people who had to "think" it through on each turn. Some who had to do that got in trouble in a panic situation when their mind was overwhelmed and they couldn't keep up on thinking it through and they crashed when the bike didn't turn the way they wanted it to. I wanted to know how that would feel (counter-steering always felt right for me since I was a kid, I just didn't know it had a name) so I devised a way to try to see what it would be like.

DO NOT DO THIS!
At speed, I crossed my arms so I was holding the bars opposite to normal. All was fine till I needed to make a steering input, then I went the wrong way and things very quickly went haywire as I was overwhelmed with conflicting information to my brain. Now I knew what it was like to be a person who had to think it through, then went into a corner too hot and reverted to what seemed logical to them (the wrong thing, direct steering) then the bike went the wrong way and eventually they crash. Trust me, after that exercise I know that it really messes you up if the bike goes the wrong way from what you thought you told it to go.

Didn't want to single anyone out, so I gave it a little time and then wanted to post about what counter-steering is, and what it does.

If there is a discussion, and it plays out, Trip can move it to the safety forum.

[Top Cat]

When I was a kid I was coming home from the store on my bicycle. I had a loaf of bread in my right hand. For some reason I can't think of now, I reached over to the right grip with my left hand and tried to steer that way. I crashed. Don't know if this is the same principle but your post brought it back in my memory.

[schoeney]

Hey Dan...I took your advice...was driving on busy road. Had to make a right so I turned left....bad idea...ate the grill of a 95 F250.

Dirty trick for a Democrat to play on this Republican....isn't it bad enough that you won the big office and most of the Congress??

[caddman11]

That question is on the Indiana Motorcycle license test and I'm sure that a lot of people miss it. It does seem opposite until you've tried it.

[dragon57]

Dan, I think the key to this is to GENTLY countersteer!!
some of these folks didn't seem to get that part! Obviously, you don't want to "jerk" or "yank" hard in the opposite direction!
I seriously hope that was a joke about wrecking while trying the countersteer maneuver!
I've done this for years, and was doing it without even realizing there was a term for it- it works!

[goldstar225]

Dan, You're absolutely right. Everyone countersteers is they've made it around a curve at anything above 10-15 MPH. The way I was "educated" on the subject was to " push right, go right - push left, go left". Some try to body steer and thus unconciously countersteer through the change of pressure on the grip.
If they will conciously countersteer for a while it will soon become second nature. The result is that they will find their control in curve to be much better, much smoother.
Sharp countersteering will also allow you to manuver much quicker to avoid impact with an object in your path. Try this in an empty parking lot first. Get up to 30-35 MPH and pick a point. Give your handlebar a sharp push (not a lot, we're only talking 1 -1 1/2 inch deflection) followed by an equal effort on the opposite side. The bike will sharply heel over then correct in a swerve that allows you to quickly change and regain your track.

[dank]

Dan, close, but not quite right. True, we all counter steer, but it is just an initial turn of the front wheel in the "wrong" direction in order to displace the bike into a lean. The wheel position is then returned in the direction of the turn. See below. Excellent explanation with pictures.

[gopjohnny]

I figure if you grew up riding a bike you do it without thinking

[schoeney]

I seriously hope that was a joke about wrecking while trying the countersteer maneuver!

Yes I was just kidding...do you think I would really listen to Dan about riding?....he is nuts ;)...just look at some of his Nomad videos!

I too wasn't aware they gave a term to something I do naturally.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by dank

Dan, close, but not quite right. True, we all counter steer, but it is just an initial turn of the front wheel in the "wrong" direction in order to displace the bike into a lean. The wheel position is then returned in the direction of the turn.

Please elaborate more on what was not right.

It seems to me that what you are saying is the same as when I said....

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

you will cause the front wheel to point very slightly to the left of the direction the bike was moving prior to that pressure (same as it would in your drive way, but in a very minute amount). The result is that the bike will lean more to the RIGHT and quickly begin moving slightly more to the RIGHT of the path you had been traveling in before you applied that pressure.

Please give an alternate explaination if you disagree with the above.

[Yellow Jacket]

Originally Posted by dank

True, we all counter steer, but it is just an initial turn of the front wheel in the "wrong" direction in order to displace the bike into a lean. The wheel position is then returned in the direction of the turn. See below. Excellent explanation with pictures.

I've got a couple of issues with this:

1. If you're in a turn at a speed that requires counter steering and you try to return the wheel position to the direction of the turn you are going to come out of your turn and cross the center line or run off the road, depending on which direction you are attempting to turn. You must hold the coounter steering pressure throughout the entire turn, not just to get started into the turn. Watch the front tires of motorcycle racers such as the super bikes as they go through a really tight turn, where the bike is leaned almost to the ground and they are dragging a knee all the way through. In these hard turns you can actually see the front tire pointing in the opposite direction of the turn all the way through the turn.

2. In the example in that youtube video, where the bike is coming head on to the camera, that bike is not going fast enough to require counter steering.

My two cents worth and only my opinion, not dissing anybody.

[dank]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

Please give an alternate explaination if you disagree with the above.

We are the same in what you quoted. The difference is in the next paragraph of your original post: "Your bike wants to right itself back to straight due to the front end geometry, so you have to hold pressure to keep it leaned and turning. When it's time to straighten back up, unless you need to aggressively go back up, it doesn't take much pressure to go back to straight. The bike already wants to go back to straight."

You do not apply pressue and hold the displaced position of the wheel. You bring it back straight after the counter steer enables you to induce the lean. Think about it. A motorcycle will not turn right with the front wheel pointing left. Unless you lock the wheel and shave rubber all the way around. It is impossible to go one way while the front wheel is spinning, has traction, and is turned even minutely the other direction. So we call it counter steering, but actually, we always point the front wheel where we want to go. We just fail to recognize that at the beginning of a turn, as shown in the video link I posted, we want it to go ever so slightly in the direction opposite our overall objective in order to induce the necessary lean. We do not displace it and then hold pressure to keep it displaced.

[Yellow Jacket]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

On other boards I've run across people who had to "think" it through on each turn. Some who had to do that got in trouble in a panic situation when their mind was overwhelmed and they couldn't keep up on thinking it through and they crashed when the bike didn't turn the way they wanted it to.

It's my humble opinion that if a rider has to "think it through" on every turn it may be in their best interest to seriously "think" about taking up a different hobby before they kill themselves or somene else.

[Yellow Jacket]

Originally Posted by dank

You do not apply pressue and hold the displaced position of the wheel. You bring it back straight after the counter steer enables you to induce the lean. Think about it. A motorcycle will not turn right with the front wheel pointing left. Unless you lock the wheel and shave rubber all the way around. It is impossible to go one way while the front wheel is spinning, has traction, and is turned even minutely the other direction. So we call it counter steering, but actually, we always point the front wheel where we want to go. We just fail to recognize that at the beginning of a turn, as shown in the video link I posted, we want it to go ever so slightly in the direction opposite our overall objective in order to induce the necessary lean. We do not displace it and then hold pressure to keep it displaced.

Try this. Go to a large parking lot. Get up to about 40 mph. Start a fairly good turn in either direction, with the intention of making a total circle. Once your turn is started let all pressure off your bars by lifting your hands just barely off the bars. If that bike doesn't straighten up and come out of the turn I will be totally surprised!

[glwilson]

No mention here of the gyroscopic forces at play with the front bike wheel during a turn?

I believe this has some to do with the counter-steering besides just gravity and centrifical forces.

The faster the wheel is turning the more the effect.

Just a thought guys... just a thought.