Freedom True Duals Full Report (long)

[toxictavrn]

Best deal I found was from West End Motorsports
www.westendmotorsports.com
Their customer service was awesome as well!

Bike is
2013 Vaquero with stock airbox

I bought the Black w/ Black tips

also bought the Power Commander V with Ignition and Fuel
from them as well
THIS IS MANDATORY FOR THESE PIPES
more on this later in this write up

Now I dont know if who you order the pipes from will do this, but know this now.....

The racing baffles that come with the pipes, to call them baffles is really a disservice, at idle the bike sounds amazing, thunderous, awesome, but get on the throttle and its out of control loud! I did not measure them for decible level, but a very good educated guess is 100+db on the throttle, too f'in loud!

This level of loud is everthing I despise about the sport, I m not innocent by anymeans but holy s*&t are they loud!

I ordered the "Quiet Baffles"
These are perfect! A source I found stated 85-87db, which again not having measured but an educated guess is pretty damn close!
Idle, sounds good, above stock sound, but get on the throttle, pretty damn nice, with just enough loudness over stock, reminds me a bit of a bad ass small block V-8 for some reason, overall right on the money perfect!

Now that cost me $125 extra, and I had to swap them, which isnt all that easy to do!

soooo if you know this going in, ask when you order if you want the quiet baffles that you can get them installed before you get them at no extra cost or ordeal to install!

About the baffle install, you have to clamp the entire muffler to a vice by the mounting brackets, and use a big prybar and a hammer to knock them out with the tips from the back,

to reinstall you need a big hammer and a piece of wood, and you have to make sure the holes align to put the screws back in

I mention this for another reason, these baffles (along with the racing baffles) have packing/wrap in there, so this will more than likley need to be changed/redone at some point in their lifetime

I used stainless steel washers and nuts on the manifold bolts instead of the stock acorn nuts, tightened to service manual spec, this was just my preference really,

AlSO put the heat shields on loose first before you install, and check to see which way to put the clamps on so you can get at them to tighten afterwards!

now back to the Fuel Processor
I still have the stock air filter and
the bike will pop excessively with no processor, really badly! for the most part its not ridable! well you can, but its really annoying and embarrassing!

I ordered at first the Cobra FI 2000, YOU CANNOT TUNE OUT ANY POPPING on these pipes with this unit! I dont care how much fuel you throw at it! DO NOT BUY WITH THESE PIPES!

After using the Power Commander V (with Ignition) it has come to my attention that fuel and more importantly Ignition Advance is the only way to tune these pipes! and the most important Ignition Advance is needed at zero throttle

A good gentleman by the name of Mark Graham from this forum sent me a map, he said they started with the map for Vance and Hines slips ons and went from there,

I tried what he sent me, the map worked awesome, and other than 1 minor tweak, I bumped his settings of Ignition advance from 4 to 5 degrees at zero throttle

After mucho miles with this map the bike runs really nice, and 99% pop free, only on occasion can i get it to pop

Another thing of note, these pipes do NOT have the same clearance as the stock pipes, first they stick out back more than the stock pipes so beware of curbs backing up! and YES they will scrape in turns! not often, but they will! so forget about keeping them all pristine looking

So in conclusion, would I do it all over again? well possibly,
thats why I m putting out this info, to help other people,
since in my opinion Freedom Performance is guilty of what a lot of aftermarket companies do, is sell you a product and best of luck to you!

I called Freedom about their pipes, asked do you have any other info on these pipes like what exactly does "optimal" horepower mean? Do you guys have dyno information? You guys couldnt have spent a bunch of money designing a performance product that your selling to consumers for $1000 with no science to back it up would you? And the product will absolutely need a $350 Fuel Processor with Ignition control which we dont sell or mention to make our product work.

Well you already know the answer.....anyhow, the pipes in all matte black look awesome, the sound with the Quiet Baffles are really nice, (someone mentioned they sound good, but they dont sound like a Harley, I said "thats the f ing point!) as for "Optimal" horsepower......
after riding hundreds of miles with the current PCV map.....I really cant say if i gained 1 stitch of horsepower, the bike runs nice, but any gains in horsepower are purely in the advertising thus far. In the future I d like to look into adding a Big Air kit perhaps and then perhaps dyno the bike before and after the install.

Sooo thats pretty much all I have to say about that, if anyone wants the PC V map, (or a Cobra FI 2000 for cheap) or wanna ask me a question my email is toxictavrn@aol.com

Jay

[RACNRAY]

We dyno tuned a Vaquero with a set of the F/P true duals a while back. Did not have the opportunity to dyno the bike stock, which I have found important thru 22+ years of dyno operation as stock skoots vary in power and torque (thanx to mass production), so we had no baseline runs that would enable us to see the before and after results of just the exhaust.

The end result was a pretty smooth torque curve but less torque at the peak, both of these as a result of the unequal lengths of the exhaust.

Horsepower at the peak was also lower and occurred at a much lower rpm than, for comparison, a stock exhaust with V&H slip-ons. This is due to the extreme length of the front cylinder pipe AND the 2 very tight 90 degree bends in that front cylinder pipe routing.

So not having baseline runs on this skoot I can't say what the EXACT gains over stock were, but the end result after tuning (this skoot also had a drop-in K&N) was a bit less than wjat we have seen with the s/on/K&N/PCV combo.

Bout a year later he brought the skoot back in with a Kuryakyn BAK installed. I did not have the chance to have a hands on look-see of the internal design of that BAK so I can't comment (although the pics on the Kuryakyn website had me less than impressed with what was shown) on that aspect. That BAK made the normal gains we see from most BAK's but the end result was a skoot that was lower in both torque and power than most 1700's.

I am sure it was stronger than his skoot was in stock form.

But no doubt THE SWEETEST SOUNDING exhaust I have had the pleasure of hearing on a 1700!!!

RACNRAY

[99xcsp]

I also experimented with a Freedom exhaust although with there 2 into 1 pipe, this was on my Vulcan 1700 Voyager, it was very loud and the performance was suffering especially on the torque down low, so I also invested in the quite baffles along with PCV dyno tune, the bike felt a little smoother but seat of the pants power still felt down. I put my stock head pipe back on with a set of Vance & Hines mufflers & BAK intake / PCV map, WOW.. totally different bike.. Freedom pipes fit, look & sound well, as far as performance, not sure?

[Gypsy Dragon]

I have the FP 2-1, Roarin Toyz intake, and PCV with fuel and ignition. When I took my bike to Thunder to have the big bore kit developed, we did a baseline dyno run. I was running the V&H Pro Pipe map with a bit of butt tuning, and actually had it pretty close. It was a bit fat in a couple places, but it was good enough for the before and after numbers. That combo got me 85 hp and 100 lb/ft, so there was definitely an improvement over stock. Dave said they could probably squeeze out another couple points if they did a full tune on it, but that seemed like a waste of time considering we were tearing down the motor to design the pistons and cams.

The after numbers are a bit different, of course...

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by 99xcsp

I also experimented with a Freedom exhaust although with there 2 into 1 pipe, this was on my Vulcan 1700 Voyager, it was very loud and the performance was suffering especially on the torque down low, so I also invested in the quite baffles along with PCV dyno tune, the bike felt a little smoother but seat of the pants power still felt down. I put my stock head pipe back on with a set of Vance & Hines mufflers & BAK intake / PCV map, WOW.. totally different bike.. Freedom pipes fit, look & sound well, as far as performance, not sure?

Was ur skoot stock b4 you installed the 2-1?

If I am correct, the 2 phases of mods you did, F/P 2-1 EX,PCV & dyno tune and then stock ex w/slip-ons, BAK & PCV.

If I am correct about those 2 phases then the additional installation of the BAK WAKES UP the 1700's so ur comparison is akin to an apples/oranges comparison. You really helped that engine out with that BAK install.

I have the F/P 2-1 and with my first generation BAK my skoot made just under 86 H.P. and 106 pnds tork. MANY MANY thousands of miles ago (like 35,000) when the skoot was younger and with a V&H 2-1 it was just under 88 H.P. and 108 pnds tork, but just as I have accrued more miles, WE have both slowed down!!!

I recently fabricated my 2nd generation BAK and the skoot needs mapping bad, real bad as the mpg has gone to hell. The F/P 2-1 is a well designed system and from my experience will not kill power anywhere and the sound seems reasonable, nut of course that aspect is subjective.

Glad you have a good combo now.

RACNRAY

[coach]

my heart was really set on these till i read this write up. now im second guesiing myself. feel like the high price is not worth it. maybe v&h duels scalop slip ons that are half the price

[hlknvlcn60]

I picked up the Freedom 2-1 combat pipe for my Vaquero for $520.00 last year from Phatperformanceparts.com it fit perfect, was the easiest install exhaust I have ever done, tons of cornering clearance and great sound and performance. you can't go wrong and you even shave off loads of weight.

[99xcsp]

Originally Posted by 99xcsp

I also experimented with a Freedom exhaust although with there 2 into 1 pipe, this was on my Vulcan 1700 Voyager, it was very loud and the performance was suffering especially on the torque down low, so I also invested in the quite baffles along with PCV dyno tune, the bike felt a little smoother but seat of the pants power still felt down. I put my stock head pipe back on with a set of Vance & Hines mufflers & BAK intake / PCV map, WOW.. totally different bike.. Freedom pipes fit, look & sound well, as far as performance, not sure?

I also wanted to mention that length & Diameter of the exhaust header makes a world of difference, if the header length are not equal, power and torque but will suffer in some areas within the power band, its possible that an exhaust system can make better TQ and power at the top of the RPM but suffer down low. I like to feel my TQ off idle through mid range, this is the RPM range that we are running on the street most of the time. For example; if I'm running a drag race, wide open throttle, I would want free flowing loud type exhaust with minimal baffle vs A longer equal length good baffled/quieter system could give you better Street Performance, the power were you would normal ride at. A good street exhaust system will have equal length stepped header system, this will give you the best torque curve. Sure fit and finish/ looks are important but I prefer performance over elegance! And remember Horse Power sells and Torque wins races..LOL

[skullbagger]

I'm new to the 1700 platform I feel a lot of top end way over my old 1500
It might be due to the 2 into 1's I have on it
I'm still interested in a pcv map if any has one that they like

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by coach

my heart was really set on these till i read this write up. now im second guesiing myself. feel like the high price is not worth it. maybe v&h duels scalop slip ons that are half the price

From ALL the dyno testing I have done (and quite a few 1700's had V&H slash cut slip-ons) that is a VERY GOOD option for the exhaust, and due to what I have seen with the F/P tue duals on the dyno and on the road the V&H s/on wins...EXCEPT IN SOUND. The true duals are absolutely the BEST sounding system I have heard...HANDS DOWN!!!

Originally Posted by hlknvlcn60

I picked up the Freedom 2-1 combat pipe for my Vaquero for $520.00 last year from Phatperformanceparts.com it fit perfect, was the easiest install exhaust I have ever done, tons of cornering clearance and great sound and performance. you can't go wrong and you even shave off loads of weight.

YEP...shaves over 13 pnds off the skoot and MUCH better ground clearance and power than a V&H 2-1, tho I have still managed to scrape the front primary tube in tight right handers.

Originally Posted by skullbagger

I'm new to the 1700 platform I feel a lot of top end way over my old 1500
It might be due to the 2 into 1's I have on it
I'm still interested in a pcv map if any has one that they like

A 1700 with a 2-1 will prolly make bout 75 peak H.P. and 98 pnds tork and tho I have not had a 1500 on my dyno no doubt a 1500 will not match what a 1700 makes.

RACNRAY

[captj3]

Ray I have been toying with the idea of replacing my exhaust. Now with these last few threads I'm not sure about the freedom exhaust and the additional power it will make. I don't want to make a 1k mistake.

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by captj3

Ray I have been toying with the idea of replacing my exhaust. Now with these last few threads I'm not sure about the freedom exhaust and the additional power it will make. I don't want to make a 1k mistake.

If anything go with the F/P 2-1,(that's what I have) only real good option over ur slip-on set-up that would be worth the time and $$$

[coach]

ray, so power wise, the best option for duel pipe look is the V&H slip ons?

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by coach

ray, so power wise, the best option for duel pipe look is the V&H slip ons?

Yep.

RACNRAY

[coach]

Last question ray, (probably not) would you recommend the v&h fuel pack or pcv. Asking because fuel pack is made specific for v&h exhaust and it might be better then General pcv.