Ticket

[dantama]

Originally Posted by Yellow Jacket

You're conveniently overlooking the fact that the law also says that there has to be some other reason for the stop, such as violating a traffic law or any other law.

I missed that, it would be helpful if you cut and pasted that part.

I saw that when another law is broken, then HAVE to do it. But I also saw that it wasn't the ONLY time they have to do it. They also have to do it just if they suspect it.

So what would make someone suspect it? Give me a list of "suspicious" ways of looking like an illegal, that a non-illegal wouldn't ever be doing.

I think that illegal people shouldn't be in this country. I also hate big government hassling people at the end of a gun barrel.

A lot of crime could be stopped in this country if there were police check points every few blocks, and if they could go into your home anytime they want and have a look around. And if every day you came home from work, you saw that your belongs have been search in your home while you were gone, that could be the norm if what we really care about is lowering crime.

That is a bit exaggerated, but it would lower crime, so we should all be on board with it. We should go along with whatever it takes to make crime lower, no matter how much police power it gives the government to wield over you.

Originally Posted by Yellow Jacket

If one was to use your reasoning, if a crime was reported to the police and the alleged perpetrator was described as a white male, then the police should also be stopping and questioning blacks, browns, reds and whatever other color there is besides white. Got to be sure there isn't any "profiling."

So are you on board with anytime a crime is committed by a white anywhere in your state the cops can stop you? There are a lot of white criminals out there, and if being white is the criteria for suspicion, you'll be getting pulled over a lot.

Originally Posted by Yellow Jacket

If you're so terribly worried about "discrimination" the perfect solution is to just have the police require proof of being in the country legally of every person that is stopped.

That would be a lot better if all you want is fairness, I'm not just after fairness, I'm after the government and the cops leaving you alone; and not just the white ones. There are illegal people in the U.S. from every nation probably. And a lot of those nations are mostly white. We are all mostly on board with rounding up the brown ones though. Of course there are more brown one, so their odds are better when rounding up brown ones, but why let the white ones off the hook?

People are so quick to let abuse of police powers happen, as long as it is happening to a group that doesn't include them, and does include a group that they are prejudiced against.

I'm thinking that you'll change your tune when all it takes to look "suspicious" and get hassled by the cops is being old with graying receding hair and a rain suit on. :)

[dantama]

Originally Posted by AlabamaNomadRider

I'm looking forward to hear what you have to say GL. This could be very interesting. You've got to remember than Dan talks to crazy people all day for a living. Some of it may have rubbed off on him.

I'd find that pretty offensive,

If it wasn't so funny ;)

[glwilson]

Alabama... I am most assured Dan believes many on here are just as crazy as any thing he sees in his practice... ;)

[trip]

While I'm not a Vietnam vet, I did grow up in that era. I was in the draft, just didn't have my number come up until after Nixon killed the draft. Many of my friends were killed in Vietnam. I hold that time near and dear to my heart.

Dan, to make a statement that we are old farts that don't stand up for what they believe in is a travesty. Ever heard of passing the torch? We can't do it forever. What's your generation doing to help in the fight? Looks to me all they do is whine and speak of their "entitlement".

While I try to promote free speech in this board, I won't put up with name calling.

I don't mind you asking why we aren't doing something, just don't call anyone or any generation a derogatory name.

So Dan, I think an apology to all of the Vietnam Vets and Vietnam era gentlemen of this forum is in order. As I have stated before, I have no problems kicking anyone off this board for their actions. You are not entitled and you are not an exception.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by Trip

While I'm not a Vietnam vet, I did grow up in that era. I was in the draft, just didn't have my number come up until after Nixon killed the draft. Many of my friends were killed in Vietnam. I hold that time near and dear to my heart.

Dan, to make a statement that we are old farts that don't stand up for what they believe in is a travesty. Ever heard of passing the torch? We can't do it forever. What's your generation doing to help in the fight? Looks to me all they do is whine and speak of their "entitlement".

While I try to promote free speech in this board, I won't put up with name calling.

I don't mind you asking why we aren't doing something, just don't call anyone or any generation a derogatory name.

So Dan, I think an apology to all of the Vietnam Vets and Vietnam era aged gentlemen of this forum is in order. As I have stated before, I have no problems kicking anyone off this board for their actions. You are not entitled and you are not an exception.

You're kidding me???

Not singling anyone out, not saying a thing about the Vietnam war at all, talking about protesters at the 68 National convention and other social change protesters and calling them old farts could get you kicked off the board?

I left my moderator position because Trip told me I couldn't talk about getting a ticket the way I did(wasn't even the visor ticket) because I was a moderator. By the way, go back through the staff board and see who it was the suggested the national rally be at Custer and got the ball rolling there. It was me. See who suggested that we have a National Rally and Regional rallies every other year alternating, it was me. Have the Nation switch sides of the country every other time, it was me.

I've contributed to this site, and I'm in danger of getting kicked off for calling sixties social change protester "old farts"?

First it was the staff site that you were getting too heavy of a hand with saying what can be said by a staff member on the boards(no talk about tickets, and it wasn't even the one with a manbelly, it was the calm as can be one).

You yourself Trip post racist comments, but let them stand. I call a group that perhaps nobody on this board belongs to "Old farts" and I'm in danger of getting kicked off.

This place is starting to get too many rules. And one group is free to say what they want(right wing extremists) and nothing is ever said. But if you say something that doesn't sound Republican enough, you might get kicked off.

A year or so ago I made a post that clipped all the offensive stuff that was posted by others, and it was a huge list of truly offensive stuff, but I might get kicked off for the phrase "old farts"?

Trip, you can have your board just the way you want it. You can hate the president, hate the speaker of the house and call them all kinds of derogatory names, you yourself can make racist comments against all blacks, but I can't say "Old farts" with regard to sixties social change protesters.

It will annoy me too much to try to keep up with what the rules allow. What truly offensive stuff is fine, and what mildly offensive stuff isn't allowed. So I'll save you the trouble of kicking me out, and show myself to the door. Bye.

[AlabamaNomadRider]

Good bye Dan. Another thing Dan it isn't us old farts that served our country during Vietnam and during the recent wars that dropped the ball. It is the younger generation. It is the younger generation that wanted change and look where that has gotten us. I could go on and on about the younger generations of this once proud nation but what good would that do. You say you are gone anyway so guess you want be reading any further comments. I will check and see if you in fact have deleted yourself from the forum. Probably just a threat in hopes that someone will beg you to stay.

[blowndodge]

Dan, this case has already been settled in Muller vs. Menia. the Supreme Court ruled: It was a unanimous Supreme Court decision.
Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote the opinion. He said the officers did not need reasonable suspicion to ask Menia for her name, date, and place of birth, or immigration status. The cops do not need reasonable suspicion to ask you about immigration status.

This is Federal Law Dan.... Law of the Land as they say... I'm guessing that Norwegians are not on the list because they don't share a border with the US??? Neither are Germans.

You may know your occupation but your really out of your element in law bro. Have you ever told someone that was going to a bad part of town or yourself avoided that part of town because of your own color or background? I have. Why would anyone do this unless they have a "life experience" with that situation.

Instead of throwing stones from the safety of the US borders, why don't you go down to the border towns of Mexican and take on the drug lords and smugglers and tell them they are exploiting addiction to drugs and cheap labor! I'm guessing from the safety of the keyboard you ain't going to champion the cause.

Dan in order to be legal one of the requirements is to be able to speak English. You mean if a cop says, "how are you doing tonight or where you folks from?" (Ive been asked that hundreds of times) and the person only speaks Spanish or says, "no hablo English" doesn't the lack of that skill indicate a probable cause that this person didn't pass the English part of the exam?

If your not willing to express your discrimination to all forms including discrimination around the world against Americans then your no better.....

Dan if you were to see a rape victim at 8:00am tomorrow for a evaluation without knowing anything except they were 17 and even the name of the victim you didn't know would you expect that person walking through you door to be a man or woman.

I'm guessing you'd be thinking it's a woman because woman are probably a victim of rape more often than men.

According to your definition of acting discriminatory just because of how the person appears then you should expect a man to walk through the door instead of a woman and not use your life experience on who is probable in committing the rape. If not your discriminating against males.

All the people protesting in the 60's were legal Dan. when your legal you do get that privilige... that was over the war and during the drug revolution.

Speaking of the 60's; does the term long-haired tie-dyed t-shirt pot smoking hippie of the 60's give you visions of white people in a VW Bus getting stoned? What about Mexicans? Don't they get the moniker of Long-haired Hippie as well? NO?? then how dare someone discriminate against white people as Pot Smoking Hippies...

Your argument over legality and rationalizing is so full of holes.

[glwilson]

Dan...

You've done something that my grandfather used to tell us never to do... and that is... "if you see a pile or $hit... don't put a pitch-fork it in". You sir have put a shovel into a pile of $hit and now the whole place smells like $hit. You have hit nerves of people that directly oppose you, anyone like you, and your view points.

You see, there are plenty of people that have a history of personal sacrifice for this country... and they are not going to listen to a bunch of ramblings along the lines you speak. They simply want to put a stop to a problem; and guess what?... they realize that some toes are going to be stepped on. So be it... get over it.

Now... I am assuming we can discuss this without references to anyone being an "old-fart" or anything like that... because I really don't want to have to type enough in my responses to include derogatory names such as; "young-farts"; "diapers-wipes"; "wet-behind-the-ears"; or any other terms to describe someone that was not from the era you refer.

On a basic point... it seems we have a considerable number of people living in this country that have no experience or record of sacrifice in the development and history of this country. That point alone, in my opinion, is what separates many people in this country -- especially immigrants that do not show respect for our country and those that have sacrificed to make it where these very people choose to live. (Let's face it, I doubt any other country has as many people wanting to live in it as the U.S. does. I may be wrong, but I really don't think that is the case.)

An example of a legal immigrant that p!sses people off is someone I know from India. He has never served this country in any way... nor has he ever lost any friends, or family that were serving this county. He however has come here to find his American dream and pushes the envelope regarding laws (IRS and such); and with his own inconsiderate attitude to our country's history and sacrifice. I can tell you... he p!sses a lot of people off; but since he is a legal immigrant, he has the right to do what he wants (within the limits of the law); and no one can stop him.

Regarding some of your statistics on where the problem lies... I would like you to provide this board some facts as to "who" the illegal aliens are and their ethnicity. My guess is that fact will show the largest group of illegal aliens are Hispanic. This only makes sense since Mexico borders our country and their home country is in shambles. No one can blame them for wanting to leave Mexico.

The problem is that there has been no control of the number of people coming, working, and staying in this country -- and the fact the illegal alien population is putting an enormous financial strain on this country. That is a fact rarely debated by anyone understanding the situation.

While I understand the "buttons" you are pushing with your posts regarding the possibility of "abuse of power"; I believe most understand the potential for that; and certainly the 60's generation understands it first-hand (remember the original Mayor Daley and the Chicago riots? J. Edgar Hoover?). Our history is littered with abuses of power throughout -- and quite frankly we are living in one of those periods right now with the Democrats in Washington).

I am a natural-born citizen of the U.S. by parents who were of the same. My family's history in this country dates back to the early 1800's. Within that history are plenty who have been forced to serve in wars -- where some gave the ultimate sacrifice of their lives fighting for their country.

Now... I mentioned this mostly so I can ask you, Dan, if you are indeed a citizen and how deep your family's history goes in this country's development. Are you a citizen? Were your parents? Grandparents? Does you family have history of fighting and dying for this country?

Your answers could explain some of your view points. I am anxiously awaiting to hear.

It appears we have a two-generation period whereby many were not drafted to serve in our military. I would wonder how these generations would react if their government were to tell them the draft has been re-initiated and that those eligible will serve to fight in a war -- possibly getting killed, maimed, or otherwise... terribly "inconvenienced" in life. I hear the most complaints about AZ's law from those that have never served... nor even know what it is like to serve. (That is not being said as a fact... but rather just my own personal experience.)

In conclusion: maybe it is possible we could both assume there IS a huge problem with illegal aliens, and that they are INDEED causing major problems both socially and financially. If we can agree; then I would simply pose the question to you, Dan: how would you get this situation in control.... and if you come up with some solutions (as I would expect you will); I would want to know who in our government is in charge of correcting this problem? Then, please tell all of us here why these people are not doing what you suggest they need to do to correct the problem.

If we could get started from this point, I believe many on this site would like to hear the discussion evolve further.

Thank you for your time and consideration in addressing your thoughts to this matter.

glwilson

[glwilson]

I guess my post was too late ::)

I really wanted to know if Dan was even a citizen... (read my post to know why).

[AlabamaNomadRider]

GL you made some very valid points and I only hope Dan saw them before he decided to leave. You said a lot of things I was thinking but just couldn't put into words as you have done.

One other thing concerning illegal immigrants and immigrants in general. This country is now overpopulated and we don't need any more immigrants legal or illegal. With all the babies being born the population is growing so fast that the country won't be able to sustain us. Sorry if any of you disagree with this point. Just the way I feel. One day in the not too distant future we will be running low on food and water. Then that is when our problem will be on us.

[Kawhead]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.

What do you suppose an unlawful alien does that single them out for suspicion? And do you really think that being brown won't influence the cops suspicion meter?

I'm thinking that a poor looking brown person, and a poor looking blond blue eyed person doing the exact same thing won't get the exact same treatment.

The Swedish bikini team might be here illegally, but I'll bet a cop looking at them won't suspect it.

This law will end up being enforced based on looks. There are plenty of cops in other jurisdictions who think the same as I do, and don't want to have to enforce such a law.

Well, serve me another slice of humble pie. Plain as day it means harass all browns and deport 'em. :-[

[glwilson]

This whole "anti-profiling" issue has me concerned if it bleeds-over into hunting...

...because then I will just have to shoot anything that moves if I want to avoid profiling a pheasant when hunting for pheasants!!!!

[trip]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

You're kidding me???

Not singling anyone out, not saying a thing about the Vietnam war at all, talking about protesters at the 68 National convention and other social change protesters and calling them old farts could get you kicked off the board?

I left my moderator position because Trip told me I couldn't talk about getting a ticket the way I did(wasn't even the visor ticket) because I was a moderator. By the way, go back through the staff board and see who it was the suggested the national rally be at Custer and got the ball rolling there. It was me. See who suggested that we have a National Rally and Regional rallies every other year alternating, it was me. Have the Nation switch sides of the country every other time, it was me.

I've contributed to this site, and I'm in danger of getting kicked off for calling sixties social change protester "old farts"?

First it was the staff site that you were getting too heavy of a hand with saying what can be said by a staff member on the boards(no talk about tickets, and it wasn't even the one with a manbelly, it was the calm as can be one).

You yourself Trip post racist comments, but let them stand. I call a group that perhaps nobody on this board belongs to "Old farts" and I'm in danger of getting kicked off.

This place is starting to get too many rules. And one group is free to say what they want(right wing extremists) and nothing is ever said. But if you say something that doesn't sound Republican enough, you might get kicked off.

A year or so ago I made a post that clipped all the offensive stuff that was posted by others, and it was a huge list of truly offensive stuff, but I might get kicked off for the phrase "old farts"?

Trip, you can have your board just the way you want it. You can hate the president, hate the speaker of the house and call them all kinds of derogatory names, you yourself can make racist comments against all blacks, but I can't say "Old farts" with regard to sixties social change protesters.

It will annoy me too much to try to keep up with what the rules allow. What truly offensive stuff is fine, and what mildly offensive stuff isn't allowed. So I'll save you the trouble of kicking me out, and show myself to the door. Bye.

Do I sound like I'm kidding?

Make all the accusations you want about me Dan, but I've never said anything that you accuse me of. I have made it clear from the beginning that I wasn't going to put up with anything sh*t in the NMR board and I mean it.

You can show yourself to the door, but I see that you haven't deleted your account yet.....so, apologize or you're gone.

[Kawhead]

This is getting too heated and I know Trip doesn't want to kick anybody off the board anymore than I want to see it.

The problem is The US has a very difficult citizenship exam to pass in order for immigrants to understand our history and why we love and fight for freedom. When that step is skipped we have a situation like Arizona is deep into now a sky rocketing crime rate including, murder, rape, human trafficking, robbery, and so on. Basically values that a third world person crosses the boarder and lives the same life in MY country and endangers or takes the lives of my fellow Americans.

From my memory and news clips every President since Carter has pledged in his campaign to secure that boarder. For all the effort and the promise in the 80's if we could just grant amnesty to 2 million illegals we'll get the job done, NOTHING has been done considering it's been 30 years.

Then the Governor tries to tackle the problem, (where the Federal government has failed) in the least intrusive way possible, the state government and law enforcement are labeled racist and law suits are filed, FOR ENFORCING LAWS AND DEFENDING AMERICAN LIVES AGAINST CRIMINALS!

Sure mistakes are going to be made enforcing this or any law. LEO's are human. Even though they have to submit a rigorous background check and training, a bad one gets through sometimes. In my other life I was a house painter, and in that ten years I was pulled over at least three times for rolling stop signs or crossing the yellow line. After showing my licence and insurance, and exchanging a few pleasantries I was let off with a verbal warning. I felt it was for a DUI check so I never drank while in the company truck. The sad fact was that maybe the next two or three painters he pulled over he might have scored.

Dan, be the big man and show your compassion and ability to
compromise. I'm not much better for mocking you and agging you on. Sorry.

[NRiderUSA]

Not to piss in anyones post tosties, but has everyone heated up here actually read the law?

#1.It is pretty self explainitory as far as limitations protecting the "People" from racial profiling
If someone were to break that law by as I saw in here somewhere by pulling them over cause they had a suntan to arrest them..... then the law and believe you me, lots of lawyers would protect them as well as make them wealthy, irrelevant of immigration status.

#2. this one really bothers me, it is the AMERICAN law already, just not being inforced and obviously ignored for whatever reason.

Oh well, as always, the posts in here keep things interesting most of the time.

Oh yeah, in case anyone cares.. I do like Palin (she shure beats the sh*t out of whats his name)