Oil debate

[Sin City Stan]

Originally Posted by dshelly

I tried the T6 too when I first got my bike and like a340driver said at first it seemed fine. Then after riding a couple long rides two up, my clutch started to slip in high gear when accelerating and under load.

I believe the problem is the clutch not the oil. I use T6 and just completed a round trip to the National Rally (1800 miles) two-up with an additional 70 pounds of cargo. We traversed four 10'000 foot, two 11'000 foot and four 12'000 foot summits. No slip whatsoever. Nonetheless I know in the next 10'000 miles or so It will need a new clutch no matter what oil I use.

T6 is a synthetic. A motorcycle would be hard pressed to create enough heat to break it down.

[rickyboy]

Hey Al
Sorry I'm not there to lend some support. While you've been out having fun in Calgary in your cute little MG Midget, I've been making three trips to an from the Cariboo. I made the third yesterday over the last two weeks. I'll be here till close to the end of July now. We need to see the lawyer to tie up the loose ends on the sale of the townhouse near the end of July. Good luck with the clutch. If you replace the entire pkg. are you going with the Gorilla clutch??

[a340driver]

I bought the Barnett clutch plates and spring .. the washers haven't arrived yet, but I may put it back together without them, and save for the next clutch change. I think I'll also try the Kevlar next time. I'm finding the project fairly easy, so won't be intimidated to do it again ... ( but it isn't back together yet). Glad the sale went through. Gonna miss you though, but I'll be headed north to Barriere Friday myself. Our number there is 250-672-1902. If your roaming around please stop by.

[a340driver]

Thanks Stan ... did you look at the pictures. That's with only 12,000 kms. and what a stink. The plates are like little pieces of burnt toast. So now I know what that burning odor was during my course .... ME !

[id-man]

Yeah, that's some ugly. Good luck with the rebuild. Note to self - don't take advanced rider course.

[smbke]

Berryman's Carburetor cleaner will clean them right up!

[dshelly]

If the clutch got that hot, you want to check all of your steels for warpage. The book will tell you the specs on them. If you have any doubt on them I'd replace them. Otherwise you just ruin the new friction discs. The dark brown residue on the clutch is burnt oil.

[RACNRAY]

A few years back I had a customer with a Yamaha 1600 Roadstar. We had been servicing his skoot for a few years and had always used Amsoil oil.

Well, he bought that "Ride like a pro" book/video whatever it was and did some practicing of the techniques. I don't remember how much or for how long he practiced, but he abosolutely fried his clutch,

It was one of the nastiest clutches I had seen/smelled in my 36 1/2 years workin on skoots.

Get the friction plates too hot and the friction material hardens and looses it's coefficient of friction. The steel plates get polished and in extreme cases warp which can cause clutch drag.

Last time I looked at a jug of Rotella oil it showed a JASO MA rating which is the lowest friction rating for wet clutches. Amsoil and other m/c specific oils are JASO MA2 which is the highest friction rating for use in wet clutches. Even with that rating the Amsoil did not save Rob's clutch from the abuse.

RACNRAY

[dholmer]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

A few years back I had a customer with a Yamaha 1600 Roadstar. We had been servicing his skoot for a few years and had always used Amsoil oil.

Well, he bought that "Ride like a pro" book/video whatever it was and did some practicing of the techniques. I don't remember how much or for how long he practiced, but he abosolutely fried his clutch,

It was one of the nastiest clutches I had seen/smelled in my 36 1/2 years workin on skoots.

Get the friction plates too hot and the friction material hardens and looses it's coefficient of friction. The steel plates get polished and in extreme cases warp which can cause clutch drag.

Last time I looked at a jug of Rotella oil it showed a JASO MA rating which is the lowest friction rating for wet clutches. Amsoil and other m/c specific oils are JASO MA2 which is the highest friction rating for use in wet clutches. Even with that rating the Amsoil did not save Rob's clutch from the abuse.

RACNRAY

Wow, I didnt know what the difference was in the JASO MA & JASO MA2 was, so thanks for that info. So, with that,it seems to me we should be using the JASO MA2 oils now and not the JASO MA Oils (Rotella T6). Is that correct?

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by dholmer

Wow, I didnt know what the difference was in the JASO MA & JASO MA2 was, so thanks for that info. So, with that,it seems to me we should be using the JASO MA2 oils now and not the JASO MA Oils (Rotella T6). Is that correct?

The MA rating was established I believe more than 12 years ago. I remember talking to a technician at Maxima Oils and this was before I moved into my current location back in 2001.

He stated that the Japs had gotten together to formulate standards for m/c engines. The MA rating was for engines with clutches that are lubricated by the engine's oil, the MB rating is for m/c engines where the engine oil does not lubricate the clutch.

Due to increasing power levels, especially with sportbikes, neccessitated more aggressive standards to improve the frictional coefficiency of oils, thus MA1 and the now current MA2 were formulated.

As long as an oil is rated JASO MA it should be fine for our cruisers. Of course hard riding, heavily loaded skoots and high temps put more of a strain on the clutch. In those conditions/circumstances using an oil with the MA2 rating will help minimize the occurance of clutch slippage.

I have long determined that factory clutch plates are of very good quality. I set all my National records (the best being 8.84 @ 149.5mph back in 1988) on my ole KZ1000 with stock plates and no lock-up. Usually the weak link is in spriing pressure. It has to be enuff to keep the clutch happy for thousands of miles but not too much that someone sitting on a skoot in a showroom and pulling in the clutch lever doesn't get put off by too much effort to pull that lever in.

My Busa now has over 73,000 miles and I installed h.d clutch springs in it when I built the motor @ 5000 miles. That motor made 188 hp, the next motor made 197 w/ 115 pnds of torque. That motor proved to be a bit too cantankerous for strret use so was detuned back down to 190 hp. I ran that engine untill I installed a stock top end 3000 miles ago, and the point is it still has the original clutch plates.

Over time, miles and heat the friction plates loose their coefficient of friction and the clutch spring(s) get a bit weaker. There is a reduced ability for the plates themselves to
transfer torque, add onto that less spring pressure to compress that clutch pack together and slippage will occur at some point.

I must point out that I firmly believe that m/c specific oils ARE formulated differently than auto or diesel oils. This formulation has benefits for our engines that may not be available with auto/diesel oils. The fact that an auto/diesel oil has a JASO rating only shows that the manufacturor spent the time and money to formulate and test that oil and assign the appropriate JASO M? rating. This only relates to wet clutch compatibility and DOES NOT represent how good that oil is for transmission gears,which most automotive engines don't have in their ,uh, engine!

RACNRAY

[dholmer]

Nice write up Ray, it is again very informative. Thanks :-)

[id-man]

I'll say...there's so much to learn for us non-mechanic types.

[a340driver]

Back on the Road !! .. Wow, what a difference with the Barnett spring. I really like it much better that the stock. Strong, positive, smooth ... I also put in new plates and steels, but the Judge washers have still not arrived after one month, so I couldn't waste anymore riding weather and put it back together without the washers. I'm very happy, and with my new tires, I'm all dressed up and ready for Estes ..... awwwww..... well next time I guess.

[a340driver]

Thanks for your input guys .. and write-ups. I'll spend the money and stick with the good stuff from now on!!

[ringadingh]

You could try something like acetone or laquer thinner and a green scotchbrite pad, that may clean up the parts.