Getting hard to start

[superduty]

Hi All,
For the last several days, my bike has gotten harder to start. Most of the time, it won't start till the second try. Turns over as briskly as ever, but doesn't fire till the second try. Maybe idles a little rougher than before, but no change in power when underway. Not sure what, if anything I should check, or maybe just take it to the dealer service.

It's been cooler and very humid here lately. I always gas-up at the same place and use 91 octane. I've also noticed pinging for the first time too. Hadn't had any pinging all summer. I've changed the oil about 400 miles ago, from OEM to Mobil 1, 20w50. Bike is a 2007, with 3500 miles on it. Stock pipes, filter etc.

Thanks.

[ringadingh]

Id try cleaning the throttle body, youll probably find that it helps.

[operater]

Is there a how to with pictures anywhere for cleaning the throttle body?

[moenko]

It's really easy. Remove the round cover (whatever it's called) from the right hand side and expose the throttle body intake. You'll see two large round openings and inside them, the "butterflies" - brass plates really. Spray some throttle body cleaner inside. In the meantime, get your wife's toothbrush, then open your throttle (engine off) and see the butterflies open up. Brush the edges and the seats thoroughly with the toothbrush. Start the engine and let it warm up a little, then open the throtte and spray right through each of the intakes.

The engine will want to stall, that's when you know to let off. Do that a few times and you have just cleaned your throttle body. I guess most important are the "butterflies" and the seat they sit against at at idle. They can accumulate carbon deposits - those are the ones you want to get rid of.

Also get a can of SeaFoam or StarTron and run a nice mixture through the tank once or twice. You should clean up your entire fuel delivery system that way and notice a pretty decent improvement. Good luck ;)

Good luck ;)

[operater]

Thanks for the info....That seems pretty straight forward and simple.......

[macmac]

I agree with BD, but would go a few steps more. I would pull the plugs and perhaps clean them too. Placing them on a brick and painting ove the carbon with a cheap propane torch works well. Do not wire brush the plugs ever!

Re-set the gap, and a gap tool can be had for low dough, like maybe a buck in any car parts store. These like like a old silver dollar, with a ramp running around the border.

I would pour/mist Seafoam into the plug holes too and let it sit a while. If you pour it, cover the holes with rags and crank the engine with NO plugs in it before you install the plugs.

The ping is from creating cabon with that 91 octane fuel.

I would drop a grade to 89 and go ride the bike keeping the rpms up for a good hour or more.

If the bike happens to be low on fuel mix 87 and 89 about half and half..

These bikes should not require 91 octane with the comp ratio of 9:1 really, but because they are leaned out so much by EPA rules, the 91 can help, but to run 91 you really need to keep the rpms up and no one really does.

Mt 06 1600 Nomad is modified with V&H baggers, the Cadman kit on one side now, and a TFI fuel modual and it burns 87 octane with no ping what so ever, but it did sock with any fuel i put in it.

I added fuel with the modual and this cools the engine. Doing all 3 things gets me more useable power and better milage.. Stock it got 32/36 MPGs.

Modified it gets 40 around around town with many starts on the same tank full, over several days. on longer trips where more than 1 tank is used in a day it gets better from 44 to 48 MPG's.

Simply put you have created a layer of carbon which glows red hot on the pistons, and set off the mix before it should go boom...

[moenko]

You agree with "BD", mac ?? He didn't even post (yet)

Good advice on the sparkies, though! From my hesitation problem I've done about everything "non-intrusive" there is at this point and I think I'm getting a handle on it now :)

[macmac]

Oh well he will and when he does i will agree still... That's my story and I'm stickin' to it...






Or I read Ringadingh and took it as BD's post, because i need more coffee, and have been out and returned already today..

[schoeney]

I didn't know a wire brush on a spark plug is bad for it...does it cause problems?

[macmac]

Originally Posted by schoeney

I didn't know a wire brush on a spark plug is bad for it...does it cause problems?

Yes it can... particals of any metalic brush will adhear to the ceramic and can cause a whole new path for current to follow, and so will cause the arc to run across the new path, and the result is less to no spark.

Most shops no long use the bench mounted sand blaster made for the job, and most home owner techs don't have the air enough, so the next best method is cooking off the carbon.

Overhanging the plug's working end on a brick suits this chore well. The waving the flame over the carbons tyrns them red hot, and they just go away. You just wave 'paint' with a cheap propane torch till the carbon cooks off.

You don't concentrate the flame at all.. The process requires the heating cooling cycle to work.

The plugs stay hot a time longer than you might think too... It is best to walk away for a good 15 minutes after you are done.

When you can handle the plugs again, then it is time to re-gap the plugs and dob a smigen of anti-seize on the threads.

On my bikes almost no nuts and bolts go back on with out either anti seize or locktite, depending on the use and nature of the bolts. More often than not if the bolt is subject to being removed more often than not I will use anti-seize over locktite.

The book may state locktite for say rear shock nuts, but I don't and use anti size instead.

I am pretty sure with out looking in the book it says to use locktite on the 4 acorns at the rear of the drive shaft tube to the gear box.. I don't, and use anti seize instead.

When I did the 7,500 serive I found that water in some form had entered past the acorns, and corrosion was starting. The combinations of water, perhaps road salts, the alloy and the steel were creating galvanic action. This is mainly what causes steel bolts, studs, and these acorn nuts to seize in the first place.

The last thing I want it to add locktite to something that is going to seize, and corrosion weld in alloy. The anti seize will stop that dead, and of course I do use a wire brush to remove the alloy oxide first.

Anytime there are dis-similar metals and water, which I get as acid rain, mixed with summer anti dust salts, and winter salt residue if I don't even ride on ice or snow, which happens, the dusts last for months past first spring rains.

As a x foreign car mechanic I have seen Bosche ECU's filled and dead with dusts and corrosion, behing kick pannels..

This crap gets everywhere..

The studs that mount the drive shaft to the gear box are not 100% tight thread to thread fit, and nothing else is either. Fine particals will get in there somehow, and so far as i can tell these fine particals are very good at getting into these places.

For me it is a good thing, because people spend the big bucks getting me to get these apart. The smart ones bring me this stuff before they snap the bolt/stud off...

Just a week back a customer with 4 seized bolts on a Toy-auto came, and asked if I could get the frozen bolts out. They had the bolt caps on too. Heat isn't a help here because of carpeting.. So I say magic words old sailors taught me, and the bolts come right out, just like that....

Yeah don't wire brush spark plugs.. Another thing plugs don't like is graphite pencil marking on the top side of the plug, but that makes for a nice little dirty trick just the same.

Ya know that fool just down the street? That one with the barking dog and the loud pipes? Well you saunter over there after dark with a trusty soft lead pencil, and pop off the plug wires and run a straight line right from the brass tops to the hex flats, and maybe only the dog will wake you in the morning...

When you get up to go to work you can grin as you ride by...

[misunderstood]

Don't forget to replace the wife's toothbrush to it's proper location and act as nothing has happened.

Originally Posted by superduty

Hi All,
For the last several days, my bike has gotten harder to start. Most of the time, it won't start till the second try. Turns over as briskly as ever, but doesn't fire till the second try. Maybe idles a little rougher than before, but no change in power when underway. Not sure what, if anything I should check, or maybe just take it to the dealer service.

It's been cooler and very humid here lately. I always gas-up at the same place and use 91 octane. I've also noticed pinging for the first time too. Hadn't had any pinging all summer. I've changed the oil about 400 miles ago, from OEM to Mobil 1, 20w50. Bike is a 2007, with 3500 miles on it. Stock pipes, filter etc.

Thanks.

This is exactly how mine acted when the battery was dying. After about a week of not starting on the first try, then not until the third try on Thursday, it cranked fine that Friday night but didn't fire at all.

After several failed attempts I hooked another small 12 volt battery to it (a real small one from my computer backup power supply. About the size of the battery in a Honda 100cc) in addition to the regular battery, and it started right up.

I was charging that battery every night too, but it just went from OK to flaky to bad in about 5 days. A new battery made it all fine again.

[schoeney]

Mac,

I want you fixing my cars....but it is all the same I don't want you as a neighbor ;)

[macmac]

Oh I got more tricks than that.. Just ask me... Once I had a MPG's wacko, and just to get him going, I would sneak to his house, and either add or remove fuel. He would show up at the shop crowing about the great mpg's or howling about how bad it was. Either way it was funny as hell to me.

[superduty]

Thanks for the info. I am finally going to get time to work on this tonight. Can someone tell me what the spark plug gap should be set to?

And is throttle body cleaner the same as carb cleaner? I'll need to stop and pick some of that up on the way home from work.

It's definitely getting worse. Still starts on the second try most times and seems to be down on power. I put the battery on the trickle charger last night too.

Thanks again.